Discussion:
christian music (legal) download service
(too old to reply)
Sam Shem
2004-01-19 21:06:35 UTC
Permalink
anyone know of a website which offers lots and lots and lots of christian
music downloads, (legal) downloads for all you x kazers. Or even an only
christian music download service.

SamShem
For mine eyes have seen they salvation.
Troy Miller
2004-01-19 20:45:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Shem
anyone know of a website which offers lots and lots and lots of christian
music downloads, (legal) downloads for all you x kazers. Or even an only
christian music download service.
You talking free or for purchase? If that latter, check out
Apples iTunes Music Store - they have a whole section for "Christian"
music. Not comprehensive, but it's a start.

Troy
Sam Shem
2004-01-20 07:51:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Troy Miller
Post by Sam Shem
anyone know of a website which offers lots and lots and lots of christian
music downloads, (legal) downloads for all you x kazers. Or even an only
christian music download service.
You talking free or for purchase? If that latter, check out
Apples iTunes Music Store - they have a whole section for "Christian"
music. Not comprehensive, but it's a start.
Troy
Aren't they pay per song, I was looking for more of a unlimited or so many
songs per month type of membership. That would be nice.

So far I have one through an internet company but they are very limited on
Christian music.

SamShem.
Randy Hayes
2004-01-20 14:53:17 UTC
Permalink
Does anyone know of a good illegal service? Hear me out... I once had a
Larnelle Harris CD, but it disappeared. I have really been wanting to hear
a song from that CD to play for a friend. Since I bought the CD, shouldn't
I have the legal rights to download?

For that matter, for those people who are being fined for downloading music
illegally online, could they not argue that they owned the CD, so they
should be able to download the music? How could a court argue with that?
If they didn't own the CD, they could run out and buy it. That would be
cheaper than legal fees.
Sam Shem
2004-01-20 18:38:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Randy Hayes
Does anyone know of a good illegal service? Hear me out... I once had a
Larnelle Harris CD, but it disappeared. I have really been wanting to hear
a song from that CD to play for a friend. Since I bought the CD, shouldn't
I have the legal rights to download?
For that matter, for those people who are being fined for downloading music
illegally online, could they not argue that they owned the CD, so they
should be able to download the music? How could a court argue with that?
If they didn't own the CD, they could run out and buy it. That would be
cheaper than legal fees.
So do yo plan on walking to kmart and demanding a new shirt for free for
the one you lost.?

SamShem
Randy Hayes
2004-01-20 18:55:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Shem
Post by Randy Hayes
So do yo plan on walking to kmart and demanding a new shirt for free for
the one you lost.?
SamShem
That depends. Does the shirt know any Larnelle Harris songs?
David Bruce Murray
2004-01-20 19:42:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Randy Hayes
Post by Sam Shem
Post by Randy Hayes
So do yo plan on walking to kmart and demanding a new shirt for free for
the one you lost.?
SamShem
That depends. Does the shirt know any Larnelle Harris songs?
Comparing physical property to intellectual property never quite lines up.
Take a piece of intellectual property that's more difficult to transfer from
one media to another . . . say a book.

If you lose a book or if it becomes damaged to the point of no longer being
useful, you either have to buy another book or borrow one from a friend. You
could photocopy your friend's book (at a greater expense than purchasing a
replacement in most cases) and you'd probably be considered guilty of
copyright infringement by the courts. The digital transfer of music is so
easy and convenient, it's easy to justify it in your mind. The basic
decisions I've studied (granted, only a few) indicate that you can archive
intellectual property for yourself, but you can't access someone else's copy
legally.

Now, interestingly enough, you can use your copy a lot or a little. You can
give it away and then have it returned. The amount of use or non-use is not
a concern when it comes to intellectual property. The concern is the number
of people who possess that piece of property simultaneously. The copyright
owner has the right to be compensated for each person who possesses a copy
of their intellectual property.

--
David Bruce Murray / ***@NOSPAMmailblocks.com
---Making hay while the sun shines---
Classical Music at: http://virtualvirtuoso.iuma.com
For all my reviews and more, visit: www.musicscribe.com
---"I know a pagan piano riff when I hear it." (Dr. Bobby Clark, 5/7/03)---
David Bruce Murray
2004-01-20 19:51:06 UTC
Permalink
, but you can't access someone else's copy legally.
Er . . . I meant you can't make a copy to keep for yourself from someone
else's copy, of course.

--
David Bruce Murray / ***@NOSPAMmailblocks.com
---Making hay while the sun shines---
Classical Music at: http://virtualvirtuoso.iuma.com
For all my reviews and more, visit: www.musicscribe.com
---"I know a pagan piano riff when I hear it." (Dr. Bobby Clark, 5/7/03)---
Randy Hayes
2004-01-21 19:23:33 UTC
Permalink
What if I bought a CD, ripped mp3's for my archives, and then lost the
original. Can I listen to the mp3's? What if Larnelle Harris was my
distant cousin? What if Al Gore really did invent the internet? Are CD's
from BMG music club real, or should you always feel a little empty inside
without that little barcode?
David Bruce Murray
2004-01-21 20:02:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Randy Hayes
What if I bought a CD, ripped mp3's for my archives, and then lost the
original. Can I listen to the mp3's?
I can't see why not . . . you made the copies. I know, I know. The law isn't
necessarily logical about these things.
Post by Randy Hayes
What if Larnelle Harris was my distant cousin?
There's a racially offensive reply I could make, so I won't.
Post by Randy Hayes
What if Al Gore really did invent the internet?
He wouldn't need to run for president to satisfy his lust for power.
Post by Randy Hayes
Are CD's from BMG music club real, or should you always feel a little
empty inside
Post by Randy Hayes
without that little barcode?
No, but you should have your butt kicked for buying into the idea that you
could get 15 CDs for a penny . . . you gullible idiot! :o)

--
David Bruce Murray / ***@NOSPAMmailblocks.com
---Making hay while the sun shines---
Classical Music at: http://virtualvirtuoso.iuma.com
For all my reviews and more, visit: www.musicscribe.com
---"I know a pagan piano riff when I hear it." (Dr. Bobby Clark, 5/7/03)---
Randy Hayes
2004-01-21 20:32:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Bruce Murray
Post by Randy Hayes
What if I bought a CD, ripped mp3's for my archives, and then lost the
original. Can I listen to the mp3's?
I can't see why not . . . you made the copies. I know, I know. The law isn't
necessarily logical about these things.
Post by Randy Hayes
What if Larnelle Harris was my distant cousin?
There's a racially offensive reply I could make, so I won't.
Post by Randy Hayes
What if Al Gore really did invent the internet?
He wouldn't need to run for president to satisfy his lust for power.
Post by Randy Hayes
Are CD's from BMG music club real, or should you always feel a little
empty inside
Post by Randy Hayes
without that little barcode?
No, but you should have your butt kicked for buying into the idea that you
could get 15 CDs for a penny . . . you gullible idiot! :o)
--
---Making hay while the sun shines---
Classical Music at: http://virtualvirtuoso.iuma.com
For all my reviews and more, visit: www.musicscribe.com
---"I know a pagan piano riff when I hear it." (Dr. Bobby Clark, 5/7/03)---
And to round out the barrage of insane what-ifs, here's a little real-world
scenario happening right now at my house. I bought an Out Of The Grey CD
(from BMG!) several years ago. When I pulled the CD out recently, I noticed
that the top layer of foil was actually peeling right off the CD! I have a
post-it note on the case reminding me to make a copy of it. If I keep using
the foily one, it will soon be deceased. Will it be legal to listen to the
one-off I'm going to make?
Regardless of that, I think this should answer the question about whether
BMG CD's are real or not. Hey man, real CD's aren't supposed to decay! I
hardly listened to the thing! WTC?!

Does the On-Star in my car tell the FBI when I'm listening to copied music?
I think that's what the Patriot Act is for.
Sam Shem
2004-01-22 01:06:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Bruce Murray
Post by David Bruce Murray
Post by Randy Hayes
What if I bought a CD, ripped mp3's for my archives, and then lost the
original. Can I listen to the mp3's?
I can't see why not . . . you made the copies. I know, I know. The law
isn't
Post by David Bruce Murray
necessarily logical about these things.
Post by Randy Hayes
What if Larnelle Harris was my distant cousin?
There's a racially offensive reply I could make, so I won't.
Post by Randy Hayes
What if Al Gore really did invent the internet?
He wouldn't need to run for president to satisfy his lust for power.
Post by Randy Hayes
Are CD's from BMG music club real, or should you always feel a little
empty inside
Post by Randy Hayes
without that little barcode?
No, but you should have your butt kicked for buying into the idea that you
could get 15 CDs for a penny . . . you gullible idiot! :o)
--
---Making hay while the sun shines---
Classical Music at: http://virtualvirtuoso.iuma.com
For all my reviews and more, visit: www.musicscribe.com
---"I know a pagan piano riff when I hear it." (Dr. Bobby Clark,
5/7/03)---
And to round out the barrage of insane what-ifs, here's a little real-world
scenario happening right now at my house. I bought an Out Of The Grey CD
(from BMG!) several years ago. When I pulled the CD out recently, I noticed
that the top layer of foil was actually peeling right off the CD! I have a
post-it note on the case reminding me to make a copy of it. If I keep using
the foily one, it will soon be deceased. Will it be legal to listen to the
one-off I'm going to make?
Regardless of that, I think this should answer the question about whether
BMG CD's are real or not. Hey man, real CD's aren't supposed to decay! I
hardly listened to the thing! WTC?!
Does the On-Star in my car tell the FBI when I'm listening to copied music?
I think that's what the Patriot Act is for.
If you are listening to a copy that you made yourself, off of a cd you
bought you should be fine. Last year the recording industry stated, "people
could use and listen to copies of music, they just would not be allowed to
share those copies." Other words you could download a copy from the
internet but if you share the file with any other computer (for networking
people, I don't know if that applies to we all) or person then your in
trouble. So it could be (I'm not sure) wrong to share a song file with
other people in your household if they are using other computers. Of course
this leaves another weird what if. If you own a copy of a cd, does it mean
you cannot play it on a friends or other family members cd player, mp3
player, computer, tape player or car stereo, since in a sense you are
sharing this copy.

SamShem

PS, with the new technology on star is using, thats a possiblity, Highly
unlikely, but it is a possibility. Of course there is no such thing as
"carnivorous" hahaha
Randy Hayes
2004-01-21 22:45:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Randy Hayes
Post by David Bruce Murray
Post by David Bruce Murray
Post by Randy Hayes
What if I bought a CD, ripped mp3's for my archives, and then lost the
original. Can I listen to the mp3's?
I can't see why not . . . you made the copies. I know, I know. The law
isn't
Post by David Bruce Murray
necessarily logical about these things.
Post by Randy Hayes
What if Larnelle Harris was my distant cousin?
There's a racially offensive reply I could make, so I won't.
Post by Randy Hayes
What if Al Gore really did invent the internet?
He wouldn't need to run for president to satisfy his lust for power.
Post by Randy Hayes
Are CD's from BMG music club real, or should you always feel a little
empty inside
Post by Randy Hayes
without that little barcode?
No, but you should have your butt kicked for buying into the idea that
you
Post by David Bruce Murray
Post by David Bruce Murray
could get 15 CDs for a penny . . . you gullible idiot! :o)
--
---Making hay while the sun shines---
Classical Music at: http://virtualvirtuoso.iuma.com
For all my reviews and more, visit: www.musicscribe.com
---"I know a pagan piano riff when I hear it." (Dr. Bobby Clark,
5/7/03)---
And to round out the barrage of insane what-ifs, here's a little
real-world
Post by David Bruce Murray
scenario happening right now at my house. I bought an Out Of The Grey CD
(from BMG!) several years ago. When I pulled the CD out recently, I
noticed
Post by David Bruce Murray
that the top layer of foil was actually peeling right off the CD! I
have
Post by Randy Hayes
a
Post by David Bruce Murray
post-it note on the case reminding me to make a copy of it. If I keep
using
Post by David Bruce Murray
the foily one, it will soon be deceased. Will it be legal to listen to
the
Post by David Bruce Murray
one-off I'm going to make?
Regardless of that, I think this should answer the question about whether
BMG CD's are real or not. Hey man, real CD's aren't supposed to decay!
I
Post by Randy Hayes
Post by David Bruce Murray
hardly listened to the thing! WTC?!
Does the On-Star in my car tell the FBI when I'm listening to copied
music?
Post by David Bruce Murray
I think that's what the Patriot Act is for.
If you are listening to a copy that you made yourself, off of a cd you
bought you should be fine. Last year the recording industry stated, "people
could use and listen to copies of music, they just would not be allowed to
share those copies." Other words you could download a copy from the
internet but if you share the file with any other computer (for networking
people, I don't know if that applies to we all) or person then your in
trouble. So it could be (I'm not sure) wrong to share a song file with
other people in your household if they are using other computers. Of course
this leaves another weird what if. If you own a copy of a cd, does it mean
you cannot play it on a friends or other family members cd player, mp3
player, computer, tape player or car stereo, since in a sense you are
sharing this copy.
SamShem
PS, with the new technology on star is using, thats a possiblity, Highly
unlikely, but it is a possibility. Of course there is no such thing as
"carnivorous" hahaha
Another scenario would be me listening to an album I ripped on my mp3
player, while my wife listens to the CD in her car -- which we do.

Here's a little nugget. The record companies have been getting a cut from
the profits of blank media sales due to some agreement which allowed for
people to copy their music, tape to tape for instance. But somehow, the
agreement didn't forsee music on hard drives (as in mp3's), and HDD's
weren't included as a "blank media" type, which explains the furor. But all
those times when we were kids, and feeling guilty for making tape-to-tape
copies of songs, the record companies were still profiting.

Was it ever wrong to record a song off the radio?
Sam Shem
2004-01-22 05:04:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Bruce Murray
Post by Randy Hayes
Post by David Bruce Murray
Post by David Bruce Murray
Post by Randy Hayes
What if I bought a CD, ripped mp3's for my archives, and then lost
the
Post by Randy Hayes
Post by David Bruce Murray
Post by David Bruce Murray
Post by Randy Hayes
original. Can I listen to the mp3's?
I can't see why not . . . you made the copies. I know, I know. The law
isn't
Post by David Bruce Murray
necessarily logical about these things.
Post by Randy Hayes
What if Larnelle Harris was my distant cousin?
There's a racially offensive reply I could make, so I won't.
Post by Randy Hayes
What if Al Gore really did invent the internet?
He wouldn't need to run for president to satisfy his lust for power.
Post by Randy Hayes
Are CD's from BMG music club real, or should you always feel a
little
Post by Randy Hayes
Post by David Bruce Murray
Post by David Bruce Murray
empty inside
Post by Randy Hayes
without that little barcode?
No, but you should have your butt kicked for buying into the idea that
you
Post by David Bruce Murray
Post by David Bruce Murray
could get 15 CDs for a penny . . . you gullible idiot! :o)
--
---Making hay while the sun shines---
Classical Music at: http://virtualvirtuoso.iuma.com
For all my reviews and more, visit: www.musicscribe.com
---"I know a pagan piano riff when I hear it." (Dr. Bobby Clark,
5/7/03)---
And to round out the barrage of insane what-ifs, here's a little
real-world
Post by David Bruce Murray
scenario happening right now at my house. I bought an Out Of The Grey
CD
Post by Randy Hayes
Post by David Bruce Murray
(from BMG!) several years ago. When I pulled the CD out recently, I
noticed
Post by David Bruce Murray
that the top layer of foil was actually peeling right off the CD! I
have
Post by Randy Hayes
a
Post by David Bruce Murray
post-it note on the case reminding me to make a copy of it. If I keep
using
Post by David Bruce Murray
the foily one, it will soon be deceased. Will it be legal to listen to
the
Post by David Bruce Murray
one-off I'm going to make?
Regardless of that, I think this should answer the question about
whether
Post by Randy Hayes
Post by David Bruce Murray
BMG CD's are real or not. Hey man, real CD's aren't supposed to decay!
I
Post by Randy Hayes
Post by David Bruce Murray
hardly listened to the thing! WTC?!
Does the On-Star in my car tell the FBI when I'm listening to copied
music?
Post by David Bruce Murray
I think that's what the Patriot Act is for.
If you are listening to a copy that you made yourself, off of a cd you
bought you should be fine. Last year the recording industry stated,
"people
Post by Randy Hayes
could use and listen to copies of music, they just would not be allowed to
share those copies." Other words you could download a copy from the
internet but if you share the file with any other computer (for networking
people, I don't know if that applies to we all) or person then your in
trouble. So it could be (I'm not sure) wrong to share a song file with
other people in your household if they are using other computers. Of
course
Post by Randy Hayes
this leaves another weird what if. If you own a copy of a cd, does it
mean
Post by Randy Hayes
you cannot play it on a friends or other family members cd player, mp3
player, computer, tape player or car stereo, since in a sense you are
sharing this copy.
SamShem
PS, with the new technology on star is using, thats a possiblity,
Highly
Post by David Bruce Murray
Post by Randy Hayes
unlikely, but it is a possibility. Of course there is no such thing as
"carnivorous" hahaha
Another scenario would be me listening to an album I ripped on my mp3
player, while my wife listens to the CD in her car -- which we do.
Here's a little nugget. The record companies have been getting a cut from
the profits of blank media sales due to some agreement which allowed for
people to copy their music, tape to tape for instance. But somehow, the
agreement didn't forsee music on hard drives (as in mp3's), and HDD's
weren't included as a "blank media" type, which explains the furor. But all
those times when we were kids, and feeling guilty for making tape-to-tape
copies of songs, the record companies were still profiting.
Was it ever wrong to record a song off the radio?
You ever why there are such things as talk overs (talking over the beginning
or ending of a song.

SamShem
For mine eyes have seen thy salvation
Breeze
2004-01-22 03:23:46 UTC
Permalink
You ever (wonder) why there are such things as talk overs (talking over
the beginning
or ending of a song.
Because the dj thinks it's cool to (hear himself) talk right up to the
moment the artist starts singing? :)

-Breeze
Brian Merchant
2004-01-22 04:07:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Breeze
Because the dj thinks it's cool to (hear himself) talk right up to the
moment the artist starts singing? :)
Many (many!) years ago when the song Axel-F came out, the DJs would talk over
about 70% of the song, since they kept waiting for someone to begin singing
and cue them to shut up. I rather liked the song and was tempted to show up
at the radio station with duct tape.

--
Brian Merchant (remove 'remove' and 'example' from email)

Puritanism didn't keep the puritans from sinning, it just kept
them from enjoying it.
--Father Joe Beighner
Country Roads
Sam Shem
2004-01-22 07:09:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Shem
You ever (wonder) why there are such things as talk overs (talking over
the beginning
or ending of a song.
Because the dj thinks it's cool to (hear himself) talk right up to the
moment the artist starts singing? :)
-Breeze
Well as a radio dj, yea we do and rather people like it or not it, does
add to the quality of the program (look at all the top rated radio stations
in your area and see how many do talk overs and then look at the ones who
don't and see what their rating is. Mostly its done so you do not record a
song off the radio. The idea is if a person is talking over the beginning
and ending of the song most likely a person is not going to want to record
the song.

Sam Shem
Sam Shem
2004-01-22 08:03:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Shem
Post by Sam Shem
You ever (wonder) why there are such things as talk overs (talking over
the beginning
or ending of a song.
Because the dj thinks it's cool to (hear himself) talk right up to the
moment the artist starts singing? :)
-Breeze
Well as a radio dj, yea we do and rather people like it or not it, does
add to the quality of the program (look at all the top rated radio stations
in your area and see how many do talk overs and then look at the ones who
don't and see what their rating is. Mostly its done so you do not record a
song off the radio. The idea is if a person is talking over the beginning
and ending of the song most likely a person is not going to want to record
the song.
Sam Shem
Did I mention I have bad grammer?
Troy Miller
2004-01-22 16:42:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Shem
Post by Sam Shem
Well as a radio dj, yea we do and rather people like it or not it, does
add to the quality of the program (look at all the top rated radio stations
in your area and see how many do talk overs and then look at the ones who
don't and see what their rating is. Mostly its done so you do not record a
song off the radio. The idea is if a person is talking over the beginning
and ending of the song most likely a person is not going to want to record
the song.
Really? Is that what they're teaching you nowadays?

Hmph. Now, back when *I* was a DJ (wayyyy back - like FOUR years ago), the
main reason for talk-overs was just to create a sense of continuity, a flow
of the broadcast. Especially for songs that started slow or soft, it sounded
kinda silly to be talking and then to have what seems like dead air for a few
seconds before the song started.

Of course, not all DJs can do this *well*. Ideally, you should know your music
well enough (and appreciate it yourself) so that you know when to SHUT THE HECK
UP. Sadly, this is often not the case.

Troy
Sam Shem
2004-01-23 02:22:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Troy Miller
Post by Sam Shem
Post by Sam Shem
Well as a radio dj, yea we do and rather people like it or not it, does
add to the quality of the program (look at all the top rated radio stations
in your area and see how many do talk overs and then look at the ones who
don't and see what their rating is. Mostly its done so you do not record a
song off the radio. The idea is if a person is talking over the beginning
and ending of the song most likely a person is not going to want to record
the song.
Really? Is that what they're teaching you nowadays?
Hmph. Now, back when *I* was a DJ (wayyyy back - like FOUR years ago), the
main reason for talk-overs was just to create a sense of continuity, a flow
of the broadcast. Especially for songs that started slow or soft, it sounded
kinda silly to be talking and then to have what seems like dead air for a few
seconds before the song started.
Of course, not all DJs can do this *well*. Ideally, you should know your music
well enough (and appreciate it yourself) so that you know when to SHUT THE HECK
UP. Sadly, this is often not the case.
Troy
Well unfortunately I am not a dj of now a days, only have been doing it for
the last 12 years and your right that is one of the reasons it is done, talk
is better then dead air, going from an upbeat tempo to a soft song needs to
be properly adjusted and knowing when to shut up is not always when the
artist begins to sing but also when the song begins to take off Talk overs
are also done so music will not be recorded off the radio. After all, record
companies would not be so willing to hand out free samples if radio stations
did not provide away to make sure that song is not going to be recorded.

Sam Shem
Jay
2004-01-24 07:58:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Troy Miller
Hmph. Now, back when *I* was a DJ (wayyyy back - like FOUR years ago), the
main reason for talk-overs was just to create a sense of continuity, a flow
of the broadcast
Talk-overs are evil. I hate them. When dj's do it, especially when they talk
right up to when the vocals start, it pisses me off.

Jay

Make me a wish, mind over matter

________________________________________
www.underheaven.com
Breeze
2004-01-24 12:35:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jay
Talk-overs are evil. I hate them. When dj's do it, especially when they talk
right up to when the vocals start, it pisses me off.
I don't mind it so much when I hear a dj talking over a song, unless the
beginning of the song is really something special. A fellow dj once told me
that he got a call from a listener asking why more dj's didn't talk over the
beginning of songs. She said she thought it was a cool effect, and it made
things more "personal" for her. I'm not sure *exactly* what she meant, but
I do think talkovers can be useful from a programming standpoint and from a
listeners view - as long as the finicky listener isn't pissed off by it. :)

-Breeze
Mark Goodge
2004-01-24 13:40:09 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 12:35:44 GMT, Breeze put finger to keyboard and
Post by Breeze
Post by Jay
Talk-overs are evil. I hate them. When dj's do it, especially when they
talk
Post by Jay
right up to when the vocals start, it pisses me off.
I don't mind it so much when I hear a dj talking over a song, unless the
beginning of the song is really something special. A fellow dj once told me
that he got a call from a listener asking why more dj's didn't talk over the
beginning of songs. She said she thought it was a cool effect, and it made
things more "personal" for her. I'm not sure *exactly* what she meant, but
I do think talkovers can be useful from a programming standpoint and from a
listeners view - as long as the finicky listener isn't pissed off by it. :)
I know what she meant, and it makes sense. Listening to the radio
isn't the same as listening to a CD; the reason the DJ is there is to
put a human element into it. People like to feel that they're
interacting, in some way, with the DJ, even if it's only on the very
basic level that there is someone talking to them as they listen. If
you don't want to hear someone's voice, then you don't listen to the
radio.

A good DJ (or good programming software!) presents a continuous segue
of music and speech, where the aim is that everyone listening gets at
least something of what they lioke, but without obvious pauses and
breaks in between songs. If DJs don't talk over intros and outros,
then you end up with a very rigid "this is...that was" style of
presenting with no fluidity. A lack of relevent talk-overs (where the
DJ is talking about the song or the band, rather than just generally
wittering on) is often a tell-tale sign of a show that's been voice
tracked rather than presented live. The difference may be subtle, but
it contributes to an overall feeling of something being not quite
right.

Mark
--
--> http://www.FridayFun.net - now with added games! <--
"Nothing takes the past away like the future"
Randy Hayes
2004-01-24 17:56:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Goodge
If DJs don't talk over intros and outros,
then you end up with a very rigid "this is...that was" style of
presenting with no fluidity.
I like listening to public radio (classical music). When the song ends, it
goes silent for like 17 hours, and then some stuffy character breaks the
silence to announce the song title, composer and symphony. And since they
NEVER talk over the intro to the next song, you can clearly hear ever
slobbery syllable, and every nosehair-filled inhalation. Then they stop,
and half your life later, another song quietly begins.

So by the standards laid out on this thread, public radio wants people to a)
record entire songs off the radio, and b) hate them.
Sam Shem
2004-01-25 01:03:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Randy Hayes
Post by Mark Goodge
If DJs don't talk over intros and outros,
then you end up with a very rigid "this is...that was" style of
presenting with no fluidity.
I like listening to public radio (classical music). When the song ends, it
goes silent for like 17 hours, and then some stuffy character breaks the
silence to announce the song title, composer and symphony. And since they
NEVER talk over the intro to the next song, you can clearly hear ever
slobbery syllable, and every nosehair-filled inhalation. Then they stop,
and half your life later, another song quietly begins.
So by the standards laid out on this thread, public radio wants people to a)
record entire songs off the radio, and b) hate them.
a. why would you record an analog sound when you can have digital and b)
what is public radio, is this a new thing, never heard of it. Must be
because they don't do talk overs :0)

Actually with the format they are using, talk over in this case would not do
the songs justice or add to the quality of the program. Also public radio
is publicly funded so they don't need to try and save time since they do not
depend on advertising dollars except for underwrittings. Where as another
thing talk-overs do is save time so more ads can be played without talking
too much time from the music or you would get what happens in most (but not
all) am stations, ads between each song.

SamShem
Mark Goodge
2004-01-25 10:51:30 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 12:56:44 -0500, Randy Hayes put finger to keyboard
Post by Randy Hayes
Post by Mark Goodge
If DJs don't talk over intros and outros,
then you end up with a very rigid "this is...that was" style of
presenting with no fluidity.
I like listening to public radio (classical music). When the song ends, it
goes silent for like 17 hours, and then some stuffy character breaks the
silence to announce the song title, composer and symphony. And since they
NEVER talk over the intro to the next song, you can clearly hear ever
slobbery syllable, and every nosehair-filled inhalation. Then they stop,
and half your life later, another song quietly begins.
So by the standards laid out on this thread, public radio wants people to a)
record entire songs off the radio, and b) hate them.
Classical music is different, though, for a number of reasons.
Listeners to classical music expect to hear the whole piece from start
to finish, including even the almost inaudible parts. That, in turn,
is because the presentation on radio is expected to be a reflection of
the way that classical music is presented live - listened to in
respectful silence so that the audience hears every single note.

Mark
--
--> http://photos.markshouse.net - now with added kittens! <--
"The game is on again, a lover or a friend"
David Bruce Murray
2004-01-25 19:50:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Goodge
Classical music is different, though, for a number of reasons.
Listeners to classical music expect to hear the whole piece from start
to finish, including even the almost inaudible parts.
As do many people who listen to other forms of music.

My favorite type of radio programming is three or four song sets played back
to back, followed by a DJ telling you who you just heard in that set. Then
kick to commercials or PSAs depending on the station's profit status. When
you come back, set up the next song with some entertaining, pithy comments,
and then play three or four more with no interruption aside from a station
ID.

The only time I see any point in talking over an intro is when it's long and
boring . . . but in those cases, the song itself is probably too boring to
sustain my interest anyway, so I'd prefer they didn't play it at all if
given the choice. I realize I'd be in the minority on this one when it comes
to the Inspo format.

--
David Bruce Murray / ***@NOSPAMmailblocks.com
---Making hay while the sun shines---
Classical Music at: http://virtualvirtuoso.iuma.com
For all my reviews and more, visit: www.musicscribe.com
---"I know a pagan piano riff when I hear it." (Dr. Bobby Clark, 5/7/03)---
Sam Shem
2004-01-26 00:25:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Bruce Murray
Post by Mark Goodge
Classical music is different, though, for a number of reasons.
Listeners to classical music expect to hear the whole piece from start
to finish, including even the almost inaudible parts.
As do many people who listen to other forms of music.
My favorite type of radio programming is three or four song sets played back
to back, followed by a DJ telling you who you just heard in that set. Then
kick to commercials or PSAs depending on the station's profit status. When
you come back, set up the next song with some entertaining, pithy comments,
and then play three or four more with no interruption aside from a station
ID.
The only time I see any point in talking over an intro is when it's long and
boring . . . but in those cases, the song itself is probably too boring to
sustain my interest anyway, so I'd prefer they didn't play it at all if
given the choice. I realize I'd be in the minority on this one when it comes
to the Inspo format.
--
---Making hay while the sun shines---
Classical Music at: http://virtualvirtuoso.iuma.com
For all my reviews and more, visit: www.musicscribe.com
---"I know a pagan piano riff when I hear it." (Dr. Bobby Clark, 5/7/03)---
nice in fantasy but in reality without talk overs your radio experience
would be boring. The talk over helps provide smooth transactions between
songs, especially when tempos of the songs changes. Talk overs should not
be done between every song,nor needs to be but at the right moments adds to
the character of radio itself. Talkovers allows for even more music to be
played as you are not using valuable times for artist info and etc. You
save between 10 - 30 secs per song, although not much individually but when
you add them together in an one hour period you would get a total amount of
time between 3-5 minutes, enough for one more song or for profit radios a
total of 750 - 1500 (conservative) dollars per hour, depending on your
market and cost of advertising. In a 24 hour period, without talkovers a
radio station could lose 18000 to 36000, (figures based on two stations in
our area, in who charges 75 dollars for a 30 second spot and another who
charges 300 per ad spot). Then you get into stations who offer package
deals which is a whole different beast and would cost the station even more
without the use of talk overs. 4 songs in a row is nice but its even
better when you get stations who can offer 20 in a row and this is done
thanks to talk overs and other elements to help to get the most air time out
of 60 minutes. Why 60 minutes. Because with radio your audience is
constantly changing almost every minute. Although annoying at times.
Talkovers are actually beneficial, to the station, advertisers, radio
stations customers and even the audience themselves. Or you can get into
what most (but not all) am stations do, ads after every song.

SamShem.
David Bruce Murray
2004-01-26 18:17:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Bruce Murray
nice in fantasy but in reality without talk overs your radio experience
would be boring.
Well, it's hardly fantasy when I hear that technique done on a regular
basis. I was describing a technique I've heard, not something I was just
thinking up on my own (though I'm perfectly capable of that as well).

--
David Bruce Murray / ***@NOSPAMmailblocks.com
---Making hay while the sun shines---
Classical Music at: http://virtualvirtuoso.iuma.com
For all my reviews and more, visit: www.musicscribe.com
---"I know a pagan piano riff when I hear it." (Dr. Bobby Clark, 5/7/03)---
Troy Miller
2004-01-26 04:10:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Bruce Murray
My favorite type of radio programming is three or four song sets played back
to back, followed by a DJ telling you who you just heard in that set. Then
kick to commercials or PSAs depending on the station's profit status. When
you come back, set up the next song with some entertaining, pithy comments,
and then play three or four more with no interruption aside from a station
ID.
We would often do somthing similar to this, except that we had a policy of
*not* doing more than one "cold" transition each hour. We didn't have much,
just a short station ID stype blurb to break up the songs so it didn't sound
like a CD player on random.

<sigh> Those were the days. I'm glad I now have 20GB portable media players
to fill the void of decent radio.

Troy
Jay
2004-01-26 08:16:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Bruce Murray
My favorite type of radio programming is three or four song sets played back
to back, followed by a DJ telling you who you just heard in that set. Then
kick to commercials or PSAs depending on the station's profit status. When
you come back, set up the next song with some entertaining, pithy comments,
and then play three or four more with no interruption aside from a station
ID.
The only time I see any point in talking over an intro is when it's long and
boring . . . but in those cases, the song itself is probably too boring to
sustain my interest anyway, so I'd prefer they didn't play it at all if
given the choice. I realize I'd be in the minority on this one when it comes
to the Inspo format.
--
David Bruce Murray
Dingdingdingding! We have a winner!!!!!


Jay

Make me a wish, mind over matter

________________________________________
www.underheaven.com
Jeff Stephens
2004-01-26 13:55:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Bruce Murray
Post by Mark Goodge
Classical music is different, though, for a number of reasons.
Listeners to classical music expect to hear the whole piece from start
to finish, including even the almost inaudible parts.
As do many people who listen to other forms of music.
My favorite type of radio programming is three or four song sets played back
to back, followed by a DJ telling you who you just heard in that set. Then
kick to commercials or PSAs depending on the station's profit status. When
you come back, set up the next song with some entertaining, pithy comments,
and then play three or four more with no interruption aside from a station
ID.
Thanks David! I recall a station I listened to in the 70's had a very
popular weekly show: 7 complete albums with no talkovers. I don't suppose
that format will fly today. Sure, you had a bunch of teens taping off the
air, but the audiophiles could get a taste of what to buy next.

On the commercial side, many artists don't want you hearing the whole album
before you buy. Many albums are stocked with one or a few good songs (aimed
at being hits in disparate markets) with the remainder being filler dribble.
So people buy an album for one song, with their imagination assuming they'll
like the rest of the album. The album sells well to a wide, disillusioned
audience.

No wonder so much music is aimed at teens; as a demographic, they're the
ones you can still fool for a while longer. Yet, I'll admit I still get
fooled on occasion. A couple of years ago, I bought a disc based on hearing
one song. Later, I heard a member of that group comment (in a whining
manner) how hard that one song was to record; they usually just walk in,
play a song, and walk out. Maybe if they put more effort into their songs,
I'd buy more of their music!

On the other end of the spectrum, I've had Darrell Mansfield's _Mansfield &
Co._ back in my mix for the last few weeks, and I've never gotten tired of
it. Didn't hear any of it on the radio, but I bought it because I know he
puts great effort into everything he does. When that disc ended up in the
bargain bin, I snagged a few copies as gifts. What a shame.
Post by David Bruce Murray
The only time I see any point in talking over an intro is when it's long and
boring . . . but in those cases, the song itself is probably too boring to
sustain my interest anyway, so I'd prefer they didn't play it at all if
given the choice. I realize I'd be in the minority on this one when it comes
to the Inspo format.
Maybe I'm old. What's Inspo?

--JES
Post by David Bruce Murray
--
---Making hay while the sun shines---
Classical Music at: http://virtualvirtuoso.iuma.com
For all my reviews and more, visit: www.musicscribe.com
---"I know a pagan piano riff when I hear it." (Dr. Bobby Clark, 5/7/03)---
David Bruce Murray
2004-01-26 18:30:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Stephens
Post by David Bruce Murray
The only time I see any point in talking over an intro is when it's long
and
Post by David Bruce Murray
boring . . . but in those cases, the song itself is probably too boring
to
Post by David Bruce Murray
sustain my interest anyway, so I'd prefer they didn't play it at all if
given the choice. I realize I'd be in the minority on this one when it
comes
Post by David Bruce Murray
to the Inspo format.
Maybe I'm old. What's Inspo?
Sandi Patty, Steve Green, Larnelle Harris, Ray Boltz, Fernando Ortega. Four
songs by them, and you have your first 20 minutes filled.

An "inspirational" song is (musically speaking) one that starts soft and
slow and then builds in intensity for the next 4 1/2 minutes or so. The
style was pretty big during the years Patty dominated the Dove Awards as
Female Vocalist of the year (back when it was really a "vocalist" award
rather than an "artist" award).

I like some Inspo in small doses, but I don't care for it as a radio format.
There's a station in western NC called WMIT that has thrived on this format
for years. It WAS Christian radio on FM until some alternatives like the
more pop oriented WLFJ came to Greenville, SC.

The only other options were AM stations playing the world's worst Southern
Gospel (and even when they do play decent SG, it still sounds awful on AM).
Unfortunately, no one has ever put a decent 24/7 SG station on FM around
here. There's one in Winston-Salem, but I can't pick it up here.

--
David Bruce Murray / ***@NOSPAMmailblocks.com
---Making hay while the sun shines---
Classical Music at: http://virtualvirtuoso.iuma.com
For all my reviews and more, visit: www.musicscribe.com
---"I know a pagan piano riff when I hear it." (Dr. Bobby Clark, 5/7/03)---
Jeff Stephens
2004-01-26 21:07:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Bruce Murray
Post by Jeff Stephens
Post by David Bruce Murray
The only time I see any point in talking over an intro is when it's long
and
Post by David Bruce Murray
boring . . . but in those cases, the song itself is probably too boring
to
Post by David Bruce Murray
sustain my interest anyway, so I'd prefer they didn't play it at all if
given the choice. I realize I'd be in the minority on this one when it
comes
Post by David Bruce Murray
to the Inspo format.
Maybe I'm old. What's Inspo?
Sandi Patty, Steve Green, Larnelle Harris, Ray Boltz, Fernando Ortega. Four
songs by them, and you have your first 20 minutes filled.
An "inspirational" song is (musically speaking) one that starts soft and
slow and then builds in intensity for the next 4 1/2 minutes or so. The
style was pretty big during the years Patty dominated the Dove Awards as
Female Vocalist of the year (back when it was really a "vocalist" award
rather than an "artist" award).
I like some Inspo in small doses, but I don't care for it as a radio format.
There's a station in western NC called WMIT that has thrived on this format
for years. It WAS Christian radio on FM until some alternatives like the
more pop oriented WLFJ came to Greenville, SC.
The only other options were AM stations playing the world's worst Southern
Gospel (and even when they do play decent SG, it still sounds awful on AM).
Unfortunately, no one has ever put a decent 24/7 SG station on FM around
here. There's one in Winston-Salem, but I can't pick it up here.
Thanks for the explanation. I admit, I can get into some of Fernando
Ortega's songs when I'm not in a head banging mood. (A close second would
be Pat Boone's _In A Metal Mood_. It's a pity so many of the
"inspirational" crowd have no sense of humor. :)

--JES
Post by David Bruce Murray
--
---Making hay while the sun shines---
Classical Music at: http://virtualvirtuoso.iuma.com
For all my reviews and more, visit: www.musicscribe.com
---"I know a pagan piano riff when I hear it." (Dr. Bobby Clark, 5/7/03)---
David Bruce Murray
2004-01-26 22:06:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Stephens
Thanks for the explanation. I admit, I can get into some of Fernando
Ortega's songs when I'm not in a head banging mood. (A close second would
be Pat Boone's _In A Metal Mood_. It's a pity so many of the
"inspirational" crowd have no sense of humor. :)
I'll tell you what's funny to me about that CD. Boone did very serious big
band arrangements for those recordings and we thought of it as a novelty.
Johnny Cash, on the other hand, did no different when he took songs like
that and did them in HIS own style. We took his efforts very seriously. Is
there something funny about big band music? Not generally speaking. Now when
they do it in bluegrass style, that's different, because bluegrass is
generally amusing as a genre.

--
David Bruce Murray / ***@NOSPAMmailblocks.com
---Making hay while the sun shines---
Classical Music at: http://virtualvirtuoso.iuma.com
For all my reviews and more, visit: www.musicscribe.com
---"I know a pagan piano riff when I hear it." (Dr. Bobby Clark, 5/7/03)---
Jeff Stephens
2004-01-27 03:33:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Bruce Murray
Post by Jeff Stephens
Thanks for the explanation. I admit, I can get into some of Fernando
Ortega's songs when I'm not in a head banging mood. (A close second would
be Pat Boone's _In A Metal Mood_. It's a pity so many of the
"inspirational" crowd have no sense of humor. :)
I'll tell you what's funny to me about that CD. Boone did very serious big
band arrangements for those recordings and we thought of it as a novelty.
Johnny Cash, on the other hand, did no different when he took songs like
that and did them in HIS own style. We took his efforts very seriously. Is
there something funny about big band music? Not generally speaking. Now when
they do it in bluegrass style, that's different, because bluegrass is
generally amusing as a genre.
IMHO, the funniest part of Pat's effort was his cover of "Love Hurts." He
does an excellent job wryly interpretting some pretty inane lyrics.
Breeze
2004-01-27 12:44:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Bruce Murray
I'll tell you what's funny to me about that CD. Boone did very serious big
band arrangements for those recordings and we thought of it as a novelty.
Johnny Cash, on the other hand, did no different when he took songs like
that and did them in HIS own style. We took his efforts very seriously. Is
there something funny about big band music? Not generally speaking. Now when
they do it in bluegrass style, that's different, because bluegrass is
generally amusing as a genre.
What may have been the big difference which caused controversy and a lack of
respect for Pat Boone is that more of his "audience" was/is the conservative
Christian/TBN crowd. In other words, Pat was/is followed more closely by
people who thought/think that to pick those particular songs for an album is
the same as backsliding. Just the fact that is was Pat who was singing the
following lyrics was enough to cause heat among his fellow evangelicals.

"Here she comes, full blast and top down
Hot shoe, burning down the avenue
Model citizen, zero discipline.
Don't you know she's coming home with me.
You'll lose her in the turn.
I'll get her."

However, more along the lines of what you're saying, I *do* think that there
is at least a little bit more of a novelty feeling to hard rock tunes done
to big band. Big band is the type of music that you snap your fingers and
tap your toes, etc. It's kind of a geeky thing for a headbanger to be
doing, but if you add in the sarcasm element, it's more of a funny thing to
do "You've Got Another Thing Comin'" Pat's way. Not that Cash's style isn't
geeky for a metal head, but Cash's style is already much more serious. But
perhaps what sticks out most to me, Cash is generally viewed as more of a
"man's man," and a person who relates well with the "secular" crowd, while
Pat has always been much more "girly" and easy to poke fun at.

I personally enjoy In a Metal Mood and I listen to it for some fun and
laughs as well as for an appreciation of the music.

-Breeze
David Bruce Murray
2004-01-27 16:27:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Breeze
Pat has always been much more "girly" and easy to poke fun at.
I personally enjoy In a Metal Mood and I listen to it for some fun and
laughs as well as for an appreciation of the music.
Yeah, you're probably right . . . at least when comparing Boone to Cash.
Also, we have to consider the way the CD was packaged and promoted. Boone's
whole role reversal thing with Alice Cooper didn't exactly say, "I'm serious
about these songs." :o)

--
David Bruce Murray / ***@NOSPAMmailblocks.com
---Making hay while the sun shines---
Classical Music at: http://virtualvirtuoso.iuma.com
For all my reviews and more, visit: www.musicscribe.com
---"I know a pagan piano riff when I hear it." (Dr. Bobby Clark, 5/7/03)---
Breeze
2004-01-27 20:59:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Bruce Murray
Yeah, you're probably right . . . at least when comparing Boone to Cash.
Also, we have to consider the way the CD was packaged and promoted. Boone's
whole role reversal thing with Alice Cooper didn't exactly say, "I'm serious
about these songs." :o)
Yep, I sort of remember hearing stuff at the time about the whole thing
being meant as a "joke," but some people just didn't get it. :)

-Breeze
Troy Miller
2004-01-28 02:48:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Stephens
at being hits in disparate markets) with the remainder being filler dribble.
So people buy an album for one song, with their imagination assuming they'll
like the rest of the album. The album sells well to a wide, disillusioned
Ugh. I did this last year. I usually don't, but I was attempting to expand my
knowledge of the Top40 Pop culture, so I decided to try out _The Josh Joplin
Group_ based on their one radio single.

Wow, did the rest of the album suck. Not only that, but the latter half
literally sounded like they'd recorded it an a half an hour on a 4-track
in the garage, using lyrics generated by some sort of Mad-Libs Speak 'n'
Spell hybrid. *Really* bad.

Haven't done that since. Once I recover, I'll probably do the "try before
you buy" thing from iTunes or something like that and see how it goes.

Troy
Jerry B. Ray, Jr.
2004-01-28 14:33:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Troy Miller
Ugh. I did this last year. I usually don't, but I was attempting to expand my
knowledge of the Top40 Pop culture, so I decided to try out _The Josh Joplin
Group_ based on their one radio single.
Wow, did the rest of the album suck. Not only that, but the latter half
literally sounded like they'd recorded it an a half an hour on a 4-track
in the garage, using lyrics generated by some sort of Mad-Libs Speak 'n'
Spell hybrid. *Really* bad.
I don't do that sort of thing all that often, but there are a couple of
notable examples that should be familiar to anybody that spends time looking
through used CD stores.

One is the album from Deep Blue Something, which contained "Breakfast at
Tiffany." That was a pretty good song, but unfortunately, the rest of the
album didn't measure up.

Another is that album by the Rembrandts that contained the theme song from
_Friends_. Apparently that upbeat pop song was nothing at all like what
they normally do, so most people that bought that album apparently ended up
selling it to used CD stores.

Another good example that I've always found amusing (it didn't happen to
me) is Extreme's _Pornograffitti_. A lot of people apparently liked the
pretty Top 40 ballads "More Than Words" and "Hole Hearted," both of which
WERE pretty good songs, and bought the album, only to get blasted with
a bunch of crunchy, loud funk-metal. To me, that's a good thing-I love
the album, start to finish. But I'm always amused to think of the soccer
mom who liked "More Than Words," dropped in the CD, and got hit with
"Decadance Dance" and "Get the Funk Out." :-)

JRjr
--
%%%%% Jerry B. Ray, Jr. %%%%%%%% www.prism.gatech.edu/~jr70 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%
"Some will shake off the sloth of faithlessness
While others simply languish in their sleep
Me, I just fight to stay awake..." -- VOL, "Black Cloud O'er Me"
Breeze
2004-01-28 17:14:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry B. Ray, Jr.
Another good example that I've always found amusing (it didn't happen to
me) is Extreme's _Pornograffitti_. A lot of people apparently liked the
pretty Top 40 ballads "More Than Words" and "Hole Hearted," both of which
WERE pretty good songs, and bought the album, only to get blasted with
a bunch of crunchy, loud funk-metal. To me, that's a good thing-I love
the album, start to finish. But I'm always amused to think of the soccer
mom who liked "More Than Words," dropped in the CD, and got hit with
"Decadance Dance" and "Get the Funk Out." :-)
Maybe that's just because you're a He-Man Woman Hater. ;)

I suppose there might also have been the Christian crowd who may have
related to the lyrics of Hole Hearted, and then had problems with the rest
of the project.

I wonder if Pat Boone will do "Suzi (Wants Her All Day What?)" or "It's a
Monster" on his next album...

-Breeze
Randy Hayes
2004-01-30 20:36:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Breeze
Post by Jerry B. Ray, Jr.
Another good example that I've always found amusing (it didn't happen to
me) is Extreme's _Pornograffitti_. A lot of people apparently liked the
pretty Top 40 ballads "More Than Words" and "Hole Hearted," both of which
WERE pretty good songs, and bought the album, only to get blasted with
a bunch of crunchy, loud funk-metal. To me, that's a good thing-I love
the album, start to finish. But I'm always amused to think of the soccer
mom who liked "More Than Words," dropped in the CD, and got hit with
"Decadance Dance" and "Get the Funk Out." :-)
Maybe that's just because you're a He-Man Woman Hater. ;)
I suppose there might also have been the Christian crowd who may have
related to the lyrics of Hole Hearted, and then had problems with the rest
of the project.
I wonder if Pat Boone will do "Suzi (Wants Her All Day What?)" or "It's a
Monster" on his next album...
-Breeze
I couldn't even see the soccermoms digging "When I First Kissed You".

Breeze, did you ever hear Extreme's self-titled release? There was a great
song on there about the crucifixion ("Watching, Waiting").
And, man-oh-man, Three Sides is still one of my all-time favorite albums.
Nuno's leads ruled that album.
-Randy
Breeze
2004-01-30 22:36:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Randy Hayes
I couldn't even see the soccermoms digging "When I First Kissed You".
*I* dug that song. :)
Post by Randy Hayes
Breeze, did you ever hear Extreme's self-titled release? There was a great
song on there about the crucifixion ("Watching, Waiting").
Yep I like that tape. I had it long before anyone knew who Extreme was, I
think. As teens, my friends and I would crank up "Play With Me" and "Mutha
(Don't Wanna Go To School Today." We would skip by "Watching, Waiting"
(boo-oo-rring!). It wasn't until I was a little older that I really began
to appreciate that song, as well as "Rock a Bye Bye." I gots to make me a
digital version of that tape before it gets too old...
Post by Randy Hayes
And, man-oh-man, Three Sides is still one of my all-time favorite albums.
Nuno's leads ruled that album.
Yep I love that one. For some reason I never really ever got into the
"Yours" section, but I listened to "Mine" and "The Truth" over and over.

Got to see the group back in '91 with ZZ Top. Needless to say, a great
concert.

-Breeze
Randy Hayes
2004-01-31 14:35:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Breeze
Post by Randy Hayes
I couldn't even see the soccermoms digging "When I First Kissed You".
*I* dug that song. :)
Post by Randy Hayes
Breeze, did you ever hear Extreme's self-titled release? There was a
great
Post by Randy Hayes
song on there about the crucifixion ("Watching, Waiting").
Yep I like that tape. I had it long before anyone knew who Extreme was, I
think. As teens, my friends and I would crank up "Play With Me" and "Mutha
(Don't Wanna Go To School Today." We would skip by "Watching, Waiting"
(boo-oo-rring!). It wasn't until I was a little older that I really began
to appreciate that song, as well as "Rock a Bye Bye." I gots to make me a
digital version of that tape before it gets too old...
I had the CD at one time. Rock a Bye Bye... I remember being 16 and
wanting to have the giant-wall-of-amps sound at the end of the song.
My first introduction to the album was a guitar buddy of mine playing the
wild guitar solo intro to one of the songs (I can't remember which). It
really stood out. I always wondered it it was played piece-meal and edited
together, or all at once. I would try to play that fast, and never ever
succeeded. At all.
Post by Breeze
Post by Randy Hayes
And, man-oh-man, Three Sides is still one of my all-time favorite albums.
Nuno's leads ruled that album.
Yep I love that one. For some reason I never really ever got into the
"Yours" section, but I listened to "Mine" and "The Truth" over and over.
The jam at the end of "Cupid's Dead" is so sweet. The unison bass and
guitar is just jamming. The "Yours" section had some of the finest guitar
solos, and "The Truth" needs no explanation.
Post by Breeze
Got to see the group back in '91 with ZZ Top. Needless to say, a great
concert.
-Breeze
David Bruce Murray
2004-01-28 18:02:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry B. Ray, Jr.
I don't do that sort of thing all that often, but there are a couple of
notable examples that should be familiar to anybody that spends time looking
through used CD stores.
What was the group that recorded the song "Bittersweet Symphony?" I saw a
promo ad for that a few times on TV and at the movies, and I liked the way
they mixed strings with a rock group, so I bought the CD. The rest of it
sounded like a totally different group. I think I sold that CD to someone
who thought it was wonderful and saw no deception on the part of the record
label for mis-marketing it the way they did.

--
David Bruce Murray / ***@NOSPAMmailblocks.com
---Making hay while the sun shines---
Classical Music at: http://virtualvirtuoso.iuma.com
For all my reviews and more, visit: www.musicscribe.com
---"I know a pagan piano riff when I hear it." (Dr. Bobby Clark, 5/7/03)---
Jerry B. Ray, Jr.
2004-01-28 18:26:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Bruce Murray
What was the group that recorded the song "Bittersweet Symphony?"
The Verve, not to be confused with The Verve Pipe, as I recall.
Post by David Bruce Murray
I saw a
promo ad for that a few times on TV and at the movies, and I liked the way
they mixed strings with a rock group, so I bought the CD. The rest of it
sounded like a totally different group. I think I sold that CD to someone
who thought it was wonderful and saw no deception on the part of the record
label for mis-marketing it the way they did.
I don't see any deception on the part of the record label, nor do I see
any mis-marketing. The fact that a single from a record might not be
representative of the record as a whole, while unfortunate, isn't anybody's
fault (except maybe yours for not finding out more about what you were
buying before buying it).

JRjr
--
%%%%% Jerry B. Ray, Jr. %%%%%%%% www.prism.gatech.edu/~jr70 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%
"Some will shake off the sloth of faithlessness
While others simply languish in their sleep
Me, I just fight to stay awake..." -- VOL, "Black Cloud O'er Me"
David Bruce Murray
2004-01-28 19:51:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry B. Ray, Jr.
I don't see any deception on the part of the record label, nor do I see
any mis-marketing. The fact that a single from a record might not be
representative of the record as a whole, while unfortunate, isn't anybody's
fault (except maybe yours for not finding out more about what you were
buying before buying it).
I'd agree if I had just heard the song on the radio as a single or
something. I don't even think of that as "marketing," though it probably is
in a way.

I don't think I ever heard it on the radio playing as a single, though. I
only recall seeing promo ads for the CD on TV or during the ads you see
before a movie. They played the one song and then gave the name of the group
and said their CD was now available. That IS marketing a project as having a
certain general sound when it's an ad, IMO, so I felt ripped off when I got
the CD and no other songs were like that.

--
David Bruce Murray / ***@NOSPAMmailblocks.com
---Making hay while the sun shines---
Classical Music at: http://virtualvirtuoso.iuma.com
For all my reviews and more, visit: www.musicscribe.com
---"I know a pagan piano riff when I hear it." (Dr. Bobby Clark, 5/7/03)---
Jerry B. Ray, Jr.
2004-01-28 20:01:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Bruce Murray
I'd agree if I had just heard the song on the radio as a single or
something. I don't even think of that as "marketing," though it probably is
in a way.
That song got played to hell on the radio, though. One DJ here in Atlanta
kind of had a breakdown on the air and played it like 5 times in a row.
Post by David Bruce Murray
I don't think I ever heard it on the radio playing as a single, though. I
only recall seeing promo ads for the CD on TV or during the ads you see
before a movie.
Are you sure you weren't seeing the Nike ads that used the song?
Post by David Bruce Murray
They played the one song and then gave the name of the group
and said their CD was now available. That IS marketing a project as having a
certain general sound when it's an ad, IMO, so I felt ripped off when I got
the CD and no other songs were like that.
Doesn't sound like they said anything about whether the song was
representative. It sounds like they said "here's that one song by this
band that's been getting ridiculous airplay - go buy it," and so you did. :-)
If they didn't say one way or the other that the song was representative
of the album, I can't really see where they misrepresented things.

JRjr
--
%%%%% Jerry B. Ray, Jr. %%%%%%%% www.prism.gatech.edu/~jr70 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%
"Some will shake off the sloth of faithlessness
While others simply languish in their sleep
Me, I just fight to stay awake..." -- VOL, "Black Cloud O'er Me"
David Bruce Murray
2004-01-28 20:58:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry B. Ray, Jr.
Are you sure you weren't seeing the Nike ads that used the song?
It may have been Nike ads, come to think about it. Yeah, you're probably
right.

--
David Bruce Murray / ***@NOSPAMmailblocks.com
---Making hay while the sun shines---
Classical Music at: http://virtualvirtuoso.iuma.com
For all my reviews and more, visit: www.musicscribe.com
---"I know a pagan piano riff when I hear it." (Dr. Bobby Clark, 5/7/03)---
Randy Hayes
2004-01-30 20:42:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry B. Ray, Jr.
Post by David Bruce Murray
What was the group that recorded the song "Bittersweet Symphony?"
The Verve, not to be confused with The Verve Pipe, as I recall.
Post by David Bruce Murray
I saw a
promo ad for that a few times on TV and at the movies, and I liked the way
they mixed strings with a rock group, so I bought the CD. The rest of it
sounded like a totally different group. I think I sold that CD to someone
who thought it was wonderful and saw no deception on the part of the record
label for mis-marketing it the way they did.
I don't see any deception on the part of the record label, nor do I see
any mis-marketing. The fact that a single from a record might not be
representative of the record as a whole, while unfortunate, isn't anybody's
fault (except maybe yours for not finding out more about what you were
buying before buying it).
I always hated knowing that any group I respected had to release the
cheeseball song to sell albums, particularly when I liked the rest of the
album so much (cough*sixpence*cough). But, that's what makes record
companies money. But what makes it worse is going to see the band, knowing
that there's going to be a bunch of marshmallow-brains there screaming when
they play the gay song, but kind of bored and let-down through the rest of
the show.
-Randy
David Bruce Murray
2004-01-30 21:34:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Randy Hayes
But what makes it worse is going to see the band, knowing
that there's going to be a bunch of marshmallow-brains there screaming when
they play the gay song, but kind of bored and let-down through the rest of
the show.
That's what I've always loved about Bruce Hornsby. Not only does he give you
the mature, intense, extended versions of his songs when you go to a
concert, his fans really seem to get it.

--
David Bruce Murray / ***@NOSPAMmailblocks.com
---Making hay while the sun shines---
Classical Music at: http://virtualvirtuoso.iuma.com
For all my reviews and more, visit: www.musicscribe.com
---"I know a pagan piano riff when I hear it." (Dr. Bobby Clark, 5/7/03)---
Randy Hayes
2004-01-30 20:25:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Goodge
On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 12:56:44 -0500, Randy Hayes put finger to keyboard
Post by Randy Hayes
Post by Mark Goodge
If DJs don't talk over intros and outros,
then you end up with a very rigid "this is...that was" style of
presenting with no fluidity.
I like listening to public radio (classical music). When the song ends, it
goes silent for like 17 hours, and then some stuffy character breaks the
silence to announce the song title, composer and symphony. And since they
NEVER talk over the intro to the next song, you can clearly hear ever
slobbery syllable, and every nosehair-filled inhalation. Then they stop,
and half your life later, another song quietly begins.
So by the standards laid out on this thread, public radio wants people to a)
record entire songs off the radio, and b) hate them.
Classical music is different, though, for a number of reasons.
Listeners to classical music expect to hear the whole piece from start
to finish, including even the almost inaudible parts. That, in turn,
is because the presentation on radio is expected to be a reflection of
the way that classical music is presented live - listened to in
respectful silence so that the audience hears every single note.
Mark
Yeah man. If I'm listening to classical music in the first place, I
probably get the whole appreciation angle. Just thought my commentary would
get some laughs.
Breeze
2004-01-23 02:06:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Shem
Post by Sam Shem
Well as a radio dj, yea we do and rather people like it or not it, does
add to the quality of the program (look at all the top rated radio stations
in your area and see how many do talk overs and then look at the ones who
don't and see what their rating is. Mostly its done so you do not record a
song off the radio. The idea is if a person is talking over the beginning
and ending of the song most likely a person is not going to want to record
the song.
Having been a dj for about a decade, I've personally never done talkovers
for the purpose of stopping people from recording. I've never even been
taught that. Not that you're wrong about that. I personally talk over
songs so I have more time to let people know we're not under law but under
grace. JK!

I do agree that it adds to the quality of programming, if, as Troy said,
it's done well and helps with the flow. Using computer automation software,
sometimes our dj's are live and sometimes we're "memorex" (pre-recorded).
When done the pre-recorded way, we can enter an "overlap" time in the
software so the voice always ends at an exact moment during the start of a
song, and the songs fades in at just the right time. That way, we make it
sound tight and right, and like we're in the know with the flow... Ooop.
Sorry man. I guess dj's stopped that cooool and smooth talk in sometime in
the 70's.

-Breeze
Sam Shem
2004-01-23 06:27:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Shem
Post by Sam Shem
Post by Sam Shem
Well as a radio dj, yea we do and rather people like it or not it, does
add to the quality of the program (look at all the top rated radio
stations
Post by Sam Shem
in your area and see how many do talk overs and then look at the ones who
don't and see what their rating is. Mostly its done so you do not
record
Post by Sam Shem
a
Post by Sam Shem
song off the radio. The idea is if a person is talking over the beginning
and ending of the song most likely a person is not going to want to record
the song.
Having been a dj for about a decade, I've personally never done talkovers
for the purpose of stopping people from recording. I've never even been
taught that. Not that you're wrong about that. I personally talk over
songs so I have more time to let people know we're not under law but under
grace. JK!
I do agree that it adds to the quality of programming, if, as Troy said,
it's done well and helps with the flow. Using computer automation software,
sometimes our dj's are live and sometimes we're "memorex" (pre-recorded).
When done the pre-recorded way, we can enter an "overlap" time in the
software so the voice always ends at an exact moment during the start of a
song, and the songs fades in at just the right time. That way, we make it
sound tight and right, and like we're in the know with the flow... Ooop.
Sorry man. I guess dj's stopped that cooool and smooth talk in sometime in
the 70's.
-Breeze
Neither have I, I've always done it for the "artistic value" and for a one
hour program I did, which combined, a verse, "sermon" and music, using talk
over helped to make the message sound more uniformed with the music I used
to help underline that message.

There is a unique talent that comes with talk-overs (and I don't think the
smooooth voice sound has gone away just yet but it has become more of a
conversation then merely giving, ids, promos, ads, weather, news and
artist/record information.) and like the both of you I feel alot of current
disc jockeys failed to learn this talent or are to lazy to learn it. We
have an automative system as well, I don't like it, it tends to make lazy
djs. It is intended as a fill in but I'm starting to see more djs use it as
they are live. The art of the disc jockey is beginning to give away to
button pushers.

The general manager always pushed talk overs to discourage tape recordings
(except for disc jockeys recording their on shows, that is highly
recommended so the disc jockey could study what they have done and listen to
see how they could improve) also the mass media professor I had did teach us
that talk overs where widely pushed by record companies (rather if this is
true or not I do not know) also to discourage pirate recordings when the
portable recorders and blank tapes first came available.

But the one thing I've learn about talk overs, its not just when the artist
begins to sing do you shut up but at times when the tempo of the song takes
off ex. Plumbs "free" has a slow and very low beginning great for talking
over but at one point you hear a heavy drum beat and it takes off, just
before this point is when one should be quiet as it gives to the song and
the mixing (in my humble opinion of course).

I do however disagree you must know the songs in order to be good at it.
When you are learning yes this is true with out a doubt but as you begin to
master it you can begin to just hear the first few seconds of a new song and
know when to add, when to talk over at beginning and end and what tempo and
volume your voice should be, when to shut up and also know how you can mix
the song with other songs without doing a talk over.

Sorry long winded but talking about talk overs and radio work gets me
excited. There is no job like the radio dj.(oh and I typed this over the
beginning of Rachel Rachel's "You oughta know by now" and finished just as
the cheryl began to sing, hows that for a talk(write) over). :0) ok that
wasn't so humble.

Sam Shem
David Bruce Murray
2004-01-23 05:16:51 UTC
Permalink
If you boys would play bluegrass, you wouldn't need talk overs. There's no
such thing as "dead air" when that banjo kicks in. :o)

(Of course, after fifty songs that start the same way, you might be ready to
shoot yourself.) :o)

--
David Bruce Murray / ***@NOSPAMmailblocks.com
---Making hay while the sun shines---
Classical Music at: http://virtualvirtuoso.iuma.com
For all my reviews and more, visit: www.musicscribe.com
---"I know a pagan piano riff when I hear it." (Dr. Bobby Clark, 5/7/03)---
Sam Shem
2004-01-23 17:30:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Bruce Murray
If you boys would play bluegrass, you wouldn't need talk overs. There's no
such thing as "dead air" when that banjo kicks in. :o)
(Of course, after fifty songs that start the same way, you might be ready to
shoot yourself.) :o)
--
---Making hay while the sun shines---
Classical Music at: http://virtualvirtuoso.iuma.com
For all my reviews and more, visit: www.musicscribe.com
---"I know a pagan piano riff when I hear it." (Dr. Bobby Clark, 5/7/03)---
I came close, I had to fill in as a guess dj on a show called the "Gospel
Caravan", three hours of non stop southern gospel music. boy ; :0), just
joking it was loads of fun doing that show.

SamShem
Breeze
2004-01-23 16:43:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Bruce Murray
If you boys would play bluegrass, you wouldn't need talk overs. There's no
such thing as "dead air" when that banjo kicks in. :o)
(Of course, after fifty songs that start the same way, you might be ready to
shoot yourself.) :o)
Naaah. I'd never get that far. I'd simply change stations as soon as I
heard what was playing. :)

-Breeze
Randy Hayes
2004-01-23 13:43:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Shem
Mostly its done so you do not record a
song off the radio. The idea is if a person is talking over the beginning
and ending of the song most likely a person is not going to want to record
the song.
Sam Shem
No Sam, the insane amount of compression and disco-curve EQ is what prevents
people from wanting to record off the radio.
Sam Shem
2004-01-23 17:35:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Randy Hayes
Post by Sam Shem
Mostly its done so you do not record a
song off the radio. The idea is if a person is talking over the beginning
and ending of the song most likely a person is not going to want to record
the song.
Sam Shem
No Sam, the insane amount of compression and disco-curve EQ is what prevents
people from wanting to record off the radio.
Before the introduction of cd recordings became so widely available, off a
radio was common. I know I did it myself. And disco, on a rock show, I
don't think,so my partner would have had me shoot and then asked for
forgiveness. But you are correct those are one of the elements that can be
used to help prevent recordings and their are others. Of course, with mp3
and cd's why would anyone want an analog recording.

SamShem
Sam Shem
2004-01-21 00:33:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Bruce Murray
Post by Randy Hayes
Post by Sam Shem
Post by Randy Hayes
So do yo plan on walking to kmart and demanding a new shirt for free
for
Post by Randy Hayes
Post by Sam Shem
the one you lost.?
SamShem
That depends. Does the shirt know any Larnelle Harris songs?
Comparing physical property to intellectual property never quite lines up.
Take a piece of intellectual property that's more difficult to transfer from
one media to another . . . say a book.
If you lose a book or if it becomes damaged to the point of no longer being
useful, you either have to buy another book or borrow one from a friend. You
could photocopy your friend's book (at a greater expense than purchasing a
replacement in most cases) and you'd probably be considered guilty of
copyright infringement by the courts.
(I thought you could copy the book or other copy written protected items, if
it is for "educational purpose" )

The digital transfer of music is so
Post by David Bruce Murray
easy and convenient, it's easy to justify it in your mind. The basic
decisions I've studied (granted, only a few) indicate that you can archive
intellectual property for yourself, but you can't access someone else's copy
legally.
Now, interestingly enough, you can use your copy a lot or a little. You can
give it away and then have it returned. The amount of use or non-use is not
a concern when it comes to intellectual property. The concern is the number
of people who possess that piece of property simultaneously. The copyright
owner has the right to be compensated for each person who possesses a copy
of their intellectual property.
--
---Making hay while the sun shines---
Classical Music at: http://virtualvirtuoso.iuma.com
For all my reviews and more, visit: www.musicscribe.com
---"I know a pagan piano riff when I hear it." (Dr. Bobby Clark, 5/7/03)---
David Bruce Murray
2004-01-20 21:44:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Shem
(I thought you could copy the book or other copy written protected items, if
it is for "educational purpose" )
But no one mentioned educational purposes . . . and even then, you can't
copy the whole book.

--
David Bruce Murray / ***@NOSPAMmailblocks.com
---Making hay while the sun shines---
Classical Music at: http://virtualvirtuoso.iuma.com
For all my reviews and more, visit: www.musicscribe.com
---"I know a pagan piano riff when I hear it." (Dr. Bobby Clark, 5/7/03)---
ALuddy
2004-01-20 18:18:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Randy Hayes
Does anyone know of a good illegal service?
Does anyone else consider this to be an oxymoron?

Hear me out... I once had a
Post by Randy Hayes
Larnelle Harris CD, but it disappeared. I have really been wanting to hear
a song from that CD to play for a friend. Since I bought the CD, shouldn't
I have the legal rights to download?
The copyright holders have the best of both worlds here. On the one hand, you
don't really own the music on the CD, just the physical copy and certain rights
to use that copy as proscribed by law (i.e. you can listen to it, you can let
others listen to it (actually, a friend has shown me a number of CD's that on
the case prohibit "unauthorized lending"; I don't know whether that prohibition
has ever stood up in a court of law) but not in a place of business (that would
constitute "commercial use"), you can usually resell it, but some labels/artists
have protested that (I again don't know where the courts have rung in on that
one), you can make a copy of it for personal use under the doctrine of "fair
use, etc.).

On the other hand, if something happens to the physical media, then you're just
out of luck. Your license to that creative work just got scratched/lost/
stolen/melted/demagnetized/eaten-by-your-tape-deck/whatever along with the
physical media. So sad, too bad.
Post by Randy Hayes
For that matter, for those people who are being fined for downloading music
illegally online, could they not argue that they owned the CD, so they
should be able to download the music? How could a court argue with that?
If they didn't own the CD, they could run out and buy it. That would be
cheaper than legal fees.
I don't know that any court has backed the right of a consumer to have a copy of
music he has once purchased. The fair use doctrine has been defined as allowing
you to MAKE a copy for personal use, not necessarily to HAVE a copy. Hence, had
you made a copy of your Larnelle Harris CD while you owned it, and had you
indeed lost the original rather than sold or given it away, then I believe that
fair use would imply that you still had the right to use that copy. But as for
the right to obtain a new copy through unsanctioned channels, that is more grey.

This all does not represent my own opinions, just my understanding of how the
courts have ruled.

Disclaimer: I am not an expert, although I have played one on Usenet.
David Bruce Murray
2004-01-20 19:04:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by ALuddy
I don't know that any court has backed the right of a consumer to have a copy of
music he has once purchased.
You're right. They've gone the other way, actually. Remember MP3.com? They
lost the case brought against them regarding their online music streaming
service for people who already owned CDs.

In brief, MP3.Com put tens of thousands of copyrighted songs in their
database. They would unlock those songs so the consumer could stream them on
demand any time they were logged in once the consumer proved ownership of
the CD. Basically, the consumer had to insert the CD into their CD drive
while logged in, so MP3.Com could digitally verify that the CD was in the
computer. Another way they verified ownership was when you purchased a CD
from certain online music stores. The online store would let MP3.Com know
you'd bought a legitimate copy, and MP3.Com would instantly unlock those
songs for streaming (even before your copy was delivered in the mail).

Well, the court shot that service down. The RIAA sued MP3.Com and won. Why?
Because the copy being streamed wasn't an actual direct copy of the physical
CD that had been purchased. If the songs had been actually uploaded to
MP3.Com every time (making them keep duplicate copies of the same song), it
wouldn't have been a problem. Of course, that defeated the user friendliness
of the service, so it would have been too costly to maintain.

At least, that was the justification given by the court. There was also the
problem of people loaning their CDs to friends who would then claim it was
their own for the purpose of getting the streaming unlocked, but like the
issue of radar detectors, etc., I don't think that should have been
MP3.Com's responsibility.
Post by ALuddy
The fair use doctrine has been defined as allowing
you to MAKE a copy for personal use, not necessarily to HAVE a copy.
That's my understanding as well.

--
David Bruce Murray / ***@NOSPAMmailblocks.com
---Making hay while the sun shines---
Classical Music at: http://virtualvirtuoso.iuma.com
For all my reviews and more, visit: www.musicscribe.com
---"I know a pagan piano riff when I hear it." (Dr. Bobby Clark, 5/7/03)---
rose
2004-01-20 21:41:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by ALuddy
Post by Randy Hayes
Does anyone know of a good illegal service?
Does anyone else consider this to be an oxymoron?
Who else has been around here long enough to remember Ross Morley?!

=)

Peace,

Rose
Jerry B. Ray, Jr.
2004-01-21 00:10:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by rose
Who else has been around here long enough to remember Ross Morley?!
Well, I've been here since before there WAS a "here," but I don't remember
Ross Morley.

JRjr
--
%%%%% Jerry B. Ray, Jr. %%%%%%%% www.prism.gatech.edu/~jr70 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%
"Some will shake off the sloth of faithlessness
While others simply languish in their sleep
Me, I just fight to stay awake..." -- VOL, "Black Cloud O'er Me"
rose
2004-01-21 03:18:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry B. Ray, Jr.
Post by rose
Who else has been around here long enough to remember Ross Morley?!
Well, I've been here since before there WAS a "here,"
:^)
Post by Jerry B. Ray, Jr.
but I don't remember
Ross Morley.
He was the Keeper of rmc's Oxymoron List.

It's strange (and sometimes, a little sad) how some people just disappear from
here.

Peace,

Rose
Ethan Rogati
2004-01-21 03:51:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by rose
Post by Jerry B. Ray, Jr.
Post by rose
Who else has been around here long enough to remember Ross Morley?!
Well, I've been here since before there WAS a "here,"
:^)
Post by Jerry B. Ray, Jr.
but I don't remember
Ross Morley.
He was the Keeper of rmc's Oxymoron List.
It's strange (and sometimes, a little sad) how some people just disappear from
here.
And how others stick around. =)
*THWAP!*
What?! I was talking about me!
rose
2004-01-22 14:54:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ethan Rogati
Post by rose
It's strange (and sometimes, a little sad) how some people just disappear
from
Post by rose
here.
And how others stick around. =)
*THWAP!*
What?! I was talking about me!
Hm. A self-thawpper.

;^)

Peace,

Rose
Ethan Rogati
2004-01-22 17:35:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by rose
Post by Ethan Rogati
Post by rose
It's strange (and sometimes, a little sad) how some people just disappear
from
Post by rose
here.
And how others stick around. =)
*THWAP!*
What?! I was talking about me!
Hm. A self-thawpper.
;^)
I'm a masochist or something.
snail
2004-01-23 07:11:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by rose
Post by Jerry B. Ray, Jr.
Post by rose
Who else has been around here long enough to remember Ross Morley?!
I remember Ross.
Post by rose
Post by Jerry B. Ray, Jr.
Well, I've been here since before there WAS a "here,"
:^)
Official rmc old fart, unlike Bob Miller, who is just an old fart *grin*
Post by rose
Post by Jerry B. Ray, Jr.
but I don't remember
Ross Morley.
He was the Keeper of rmc's Oxymoron List.
...but I don't remember that bit. Here it is:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=1996Jan29.234838.12726%40prpa.philips.com
Post by rose
It's strange (and sometimes, a little sad) how some people just disappear from
here.
See also:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=20001031113439.18816.00001598%40ng-fi1.aol.com

<g,d,r>
--
snail @ careless net http://www.zip.com.au/~vvsnail
A liberal is a man too broadminded to take his own side in a quarrel - Frost.
rose
2004-01-24 14:33:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by snail
Post by Jerry B. Ray, Jr.
Post by rose
Who else has been around here long enough to remember Ross Morley?!
I remember Ross.
I especially remember him because I met him.
Post by snail
Post by Jerry B. Ray, Jr.
Well, I've been here since before there WAS a "here,"
:^)
Official rmc old fart, unlike Bob Miller, who is just an old fart *grin*
Ha!
Now cut that out!
Post by snail
<g,d,r>
You can't run that fast! =)

Peace,

Rose
b***@spammenotagilent.com
2004-01-26 20:07:03 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@zeus.zipworld.com.au>
snail <***@careless.netoops.invalid> wrote:
: Official rmc old fart, unlike Bob Miller, who is just an old fart *grin*

<wakes up from his nap>

Wellllll, my first post as recorded in Google was dated Nov 19, 1991. So while I
may not be a charter participant, I have been continuously around if not overly
chatty for more than 12 years...

When was this newsgroup created, anyway?

Bob (old fart) Miller
<remove spammenot to reply>
scholar and fool
2004-01-29 08:29:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@spammenotagilent.com
: Official rmc old fart, unlike Bob Miller, who is just an old fart
: *grin*
<wakes up from his nap>
Wellllll, my first post as recorded in Google was dated Nov 19, 1991.
So while I may not be a charter participant, I have been continuously
around if not overly chatty for more than 12 years...
When was this newsgroup created, anyway?
the final results of the cfv was posted on apr 21 1991.

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=Apr.21.00.33.12.1991.18822%
40athos.rutgers.edu&oe=UTF-8&output=gplain

(sorry if that wraps.)

the group started showing up on news servers over the next
week or two.
--
scholar and fool /// posing as ***@failure.net
replace junkmail with slacker to e-mail me. really.
scholar and fool
2004-01-24 05:27:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by rose
It's strange (and sometimes, a little sad) how some
people just disappear from here.
tell me about it. *rolls eyes*
--
scholar and fool /// posing as ***@failure.net
replace junkmail with slacker to e-mail me. really.
snail
2004-01-24 14:11:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by scholar and fool
Post by rose
It's strange (and sometimes, a little sad) how some
people just disappear from here.
tell me about it. *rolls eyes*
Who are you ?
--
snail @ careless net http://www.zip.com.au/~vvsnail
A liberal is a man too broadminded to take his own side in a quarrel - Frost.
scholar and fool
2004-01-29 08:43:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by snail
Post by scholar and fool
Post by rose
It's strange (and sometimes, a little sad) how some
people just disappear from here.
tell me about it. *rolls eyes*
Who are you ?
straight for the jugular, eh?

i'm nobody. a washed-up usenet has-been, looking to
relive the heady glory days when i used to spend near
every waking moment posting laughable commentary and
none-too-funny witticisms to this G-d-forsaken list.

oh well, enough of the wistful remembrances. i've
got lots of nothing else competing for my attention.
--
scholar and fool /// posing as ***@failure.net
replace junkmail with slacker to e-mail me. really.
q: why did the chicken cross the road?
a: hey, where's my wallet?!
Breeze
2004-01-29 17:33:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by scholar and fool
oh well, enough of the wistful remembrances. i've
got lots of nothing else competing for my attention.
Last week when I saw your first post in a while, I was gonna knock on your
door and ask if you could come out and play.

-Breeze
scholar and fool
2004-01-31 23:07:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Breeze
Post by scholar and fool
oh well, enough of the wistful remembrances. i've
got lots of nothing else competing for my attention.
Last week when I saw your first post in a while, I was
gonna knock on your door and ask if you could come out
and play.
well, i don't have to ask anyone's permission anymore.
i'z all growdz up. but i can stretch "i know almost
nothing about what's going on with xian music or the
xian scene anymore" only so far. not that being
on-topic was my most noted trait through the years...
but at least i was qualified should the need to be
on-topic arise. ;)
--
scholar and fool /// posing as ***@failure.net
replace junkmail with slacker to e-mail me. really.
Michael A. Vickers
2004-01-31 14:00:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by scholar and fool
i'm nobody. a washed-up usenet has-been, looking to
relive the heady glory days when i used to spend near
every waking moment posting laughable commentary and
none-too-funny witticisms to this G-d-forsaken list.
Sometimes when you come back after being gone for awhile you get the
impression that some things haven't changed (lotsa crap) while others things
have (lotsa different crap).

Are you still hanging around on IRC?


Michael

--
Ah, how quick men are to blame the gods! From us, they say, all their
evils come, when they themselves, by their own ridiculous pride, bring
horrors on far beyond anything fate would have ever done. - Homer
scholar and fool
2004-01-31 23:18:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael A. Vickers
[irrelevent]
Sometimes when you come back after being gone for awhile you get the
impression that some things haven't changed (lotsa crap) while others
things have (lotsa different crap).
heh. yeah. unfortunately, i've also almost completely dropped out
of the xian music scene. every now and then i'll poke around on here
or the net to see what's going on, but it's lost most of its interest
for me. i now mostly listen to old country and alt.country, some
different types of electronic-based music, and older punk/hardcore.
there's just not much in the xian scene that caught my attention, and
eventually i lost interest. i live in houston, texas, and either the
xian scene here took a nosedive over the last couple of years (it
always pretty much sucked anyway) or i've fallen totally out of the
loop. i'm not talking about xian pop music or ccm, obviously.
Post by Michael A. Vickers
Are you still hanging around on IRC?
nah, i did about 20 years worth of irc in my college years. :)
plus i got a wife so my priorities and free time shifted.

but now that my wife admitted to me a few months ago that she
was having an affair (which was totally shocking...i'll defer
any details) after over five years of marriage, i've got time
to go around to the old haunts. lucky me...i lose a lifetime
commitment i made to G-d and man, i get rec.music.christian. ;)

i actually am on irc from about 8pm to 10pm on wednesday nights,
because i help do a two-hour call-in radio show about computers
and technology. i've been doing that for a couple of years. we
were on the undernet, but a year or so ago we moved to cuckoo.net.
the show is called technology bytes, website is www.geekradio.com
if you or anyone else is interested. it's not "my" show in any
way, shape, or form...it's been going about 8 years. it gets
compared to a computer show version of "car talk", which i think
is a decent comparison because i think it's generally fairly funny
even if you're not real knowledgeable about computers. i was a
listener for a year or two, then managed to weasel my way into
being a permanent fixture.
--
scholar and fool /// posing as ***@failure.net
replace junkmail with slacker to e-mail me. really.
Jerry B. Ray, Jr.
2004-02-03 21:14:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by scholar and fool
heh. yeah. unfortunately, i've also almost completely dropped out
of the xian music scene.
It seems like most everybody I know has. I mean, I still go to
Cornerstone (as do a lot of my friends), and when I'm there I'll occasionally
come across a band I hadn't heard before that piques my interest, but as
far as going to (or even knowing about) release schedules and concert
tours and stuff like that from bands that are currently being sold in
Christian bookstores, I really don't keep up with it anymore. (Except maybe
Third Day, I guess, but they're old-time hometown favorites of mine.)

Most of the Christian bands that I do still keep track of are off the radar
of the Christian radio/Christian bookstore arena. Either they're too old
or too obscure to really have much of a presence in those areas, or they
operate kind of on the fringes of that world and Cornerstone is the only
real tie they have into it. (I'm thinking of bands like Bill Mallonee/
Vigilantes of Love, Over the Rhine, the Echoing Green, the Violet Burning,
Daniel Amos, Lost Dogs, the Choir, Starflyer 59, and stuff like that.)
Post by scholar and fool
there's just not much in the xian scene that caught my attention, and
eventually i lost interest.
That scene definitely seems to be marketed either toward youth group kids
or housewives/soccer moms with, shall we say, less than discerning musical
tastes. I've outgrown most of the youth group music, and I haven't yet
experienced the homogenizing effects of age on musical taste that makes
me seek out the stuff they play on Christian radio, so I've really drifted
away from the mainstream of Christian music.
Post by scholar and fool
i live in houston, texas, and either the
xian scene here took a nosedive over the last couple of years (it
always pretty much sucked anyway) or i've fallen totally out of the
loop.
There doesn't seem to be nearly as much of a cool alternative Christian
music scene here in the Atlanta area as there was in the early-to-mid 90s,
that's for sure. I was looking through some old music mags recently,
and was pretty amazed to see how many great shows came through here
on an almost-weekly basis. Now, it's probably true that there are still
some shows that I just don't know about because I'm not in the loop
anymore, but it's also true that a lot of the structure that brought
those bands here (promoters, clubs, fans) doesn't exist anymore. Maybe
part of is that a lot of bands that would be populating such a scene are
shooting for the mainstream rather than bothering with the Christian market,
I dunno.

JRjr
--
%%%%% Jerry B. Ray, Jr. %%%%%%%% www.prism.gatech.edu/~jr70 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%
"Some will shake off the sloth of faithlessness
While others simply languish in their sleep
Me, I just fight to stay awake..." -- VOL, "Black Cloud O'er Me"
scholar and fool
2004-02-04 02:32:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry B. Ray, Jr.
Post by scholar and fool
heh. yeah. unfortunately, i've also almost completely dropped
out of the xian music scene.
It seems like most everybody I know has.
that's pretty much the case with me as well. i know some of the
bands i listened to are still around and doing stuff, but most of
the people i've known that were into scene aren't into it much
anymore.
Post by Jerry B. Ray, Jr.
I mean, I still go to Cornerstone (as do a lot of my friends), and
when I'm there I'll occasionally come across a band I hadn't heard
before that piques my interest, but as far as going to (or even
knowing about) release schedules and concert tours and stuff like
that from bands that are currently being sold in Christian
bookstores, I really don't keep up with it anymore. (Except maybe
Third Day, I guess, but they're old-time hometown favorites of mine.)
pretty much the same for me. i didn't go to c-stone this last
summer, but that's partially because my wife and i didn't plan it
because we were in the middle of dealing with infertility stuff
and trying to have a child...so we didn't know what the situation
would be or what kind of income we had to spend. the year before
that it was because my wife was going to grad school and i was
trying to find a job there and we didn't know what was going to
happen with jobs and the house and etc. but i might go to c-stone
this summer...i don't know. i had to go to xian bookstores to get
the music i was into, but my knowledge of that was very much not
based on xian bookstores because most people there knew nothing
about the music i was into...they just sold some of it.
Post by Jerry B. Ray, Jr.
Most of the Christian bands that I do still keep track of are off the
radar of the Christian radio/Christian bookstore arena. Either
they're too old or too obscure to really have much of a presence in
those areas, or they operate kind of on the fringes of that world and
Cornerstone is the only real tie they have into it. (I'm thinking of
bands like Bill Mallonee/ Vigilantes of Love, Over the Rhine, the
Echoing Green, the Violet Burning, Daniel Amos, Lost Dogs, the Choir,
Starflyer 59, and stuff like that.)
understood, about the same here. although my tastes tended to run
darker and/or heavier, i also enjoy most of the folk you listed. and
many of the bands i listened to are defunct, or old, or obscure...
although i was interested in a decent number of tooth & nail bands...
just not much of the pop-punk or pure hardcore.
Post by Jerry B. Ray, Jr.
Post by scholar and fool
there's just not much in the xian scene that caught my attention, and
eventually i lost interest.
That scene definitely seems to be marketed either toward youth group
kids or housewives/soccer moms with, shall we say, less than
discerning musical tastes. I've outgrown most of the youth group
music, and I haven't yet experienced the homogenizing effects of age
on musical taste that makes me seek out the stuff they play on
Christian radio, so I've really drifted away from the mainstream of
Christian music.
i never enjoyed mainstream xian music, and i always felt like it was
marketed toward youth group kids or housewives/soccer moms. i don't
believe i've experienced the homogenizing effects of age that would
make me seek out xian radio, although perhaps i've experienced a
different effect, which would be an affinity for old country music
and some alt.country. i spend a lot of time listening to somafm.com's
boot liquor stream...
Post by Jerry B. Ray, Jr.
Post by scholar and fool
i live in houston, texas, and either the xian scene here took
a nosedive over the last couple of years (it always pretty
much sucked anyway) or i've fallen totally out of the loop.
There doesn't seem to be nearly as much of a cool alternative
Christian music scene here in the Atlanta area as there was in the
early-to-mid 90s, that's for sure. [...]
altanta was definitely a hot-bed for the alt xian scene back then.
Post by Jerry B. Ray, Jr.
Now, it's probably true that there are still some shows that I
just don't know about because I'm not in the loop anymore,
but it's also true that a lot of the structure that brought those
bands here (promoters, clubs, fans) doesn't exist anymore.
i think that's true here in houston, although as i said above, the
scene in houston pretty much always sucked. i ran a mailing list
for providing info about shows in houston (the site's still up and
supposedly still serving that purpose), and there were two boards
about the scene i read. all of it has pretty much died. either the
scene has blossomed somewhere else on other sites, or it's pretty
much dead here.
Post by Jerry B. Ray, Jr.
Maybe part of is that a lot of bands that
would be populating such a scene are shooting for the mainstream
rather than bothering with the Christian market, I dunno.
that's possible. i know back in the day it was an ostracized type
of community, pretty underground. most people wanted to be accepted
as legitimate (without crossing boundaries and "selling out", of
course). and that started happening in the late 90's, i think. but
perhaps as with most subcultures that gain some popularity, they
are eventually sucked into the mainstream and diluted to the point
that the original community hardly really exists anymore.
--
scholar and fool /// posing as ***@failure.net
replace junkmail with slacker to e-mail me. really.
David Bruce Murray
2004-02-04 02:51:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by scholar and fool
Post by Jerry B. Ray, Jr.
Post by scholar and fool
heh. yeah. unfortunately, i've also almost completely dropped
out of the xian music scene.
It seems like most everybody I know has.
that's pretty much the case with me as well. i know some of the
bands i listened to are still around and doing stuff, but most of
the people i've known that were into scene aren't into it much
anymore.
You should all become Southern Gospel fans like me. While the fads of
Christian popular/rock/metal/alternative/grunge/ska/rap music come and go
like the tides, I have the National Quartet Convention every year . . . good
old traditional four part, male quartet harmonies, with a dose of Country,
Inspo, and Bluegrass Gospel styles thrown in for variety. :o)

The one artist from the Christian pop scene that I've remained devoted to
hearing is Michael W. Smith. He's been all over the map stylistically, which
is probably why he's remained popular for so long. I don't much care for his
live worship recordings, but I like just about everything else he's done. I
liked the last Petra CD. Aside from that, I've found little in the so called
"CCM" scene over the last year or two that makes me want to spend money on
CDs or go to a concert.

We took our youth group to Atlanta Fest last year. That's probably the last
time I'll go, unless something seriously changes in the direction of the
industry. I can't point fingers at Tilley or anything like that either. He
brought in some of the most popular groups in Christian music. It's just not
that good right now.

--
David Bruce Murray / ***@NOSPAMmailblocks.com
---Making hay while the sun shines---
Classical Music at: http://virtualvirtuoso.iuma.com
For all my reviews and more, visit: www.musicscribe.com
---"I know a pagan piano riff when I hear it." (Dr. Bobby Clark, 5/7/03)---
scholar and fool
2004-02-04 16:05:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Bruce Murray
Post by scholar and fool
Post by Jerry B. Ray, Jr.
Post by scholar and fool
heh. yeah. unfortunately, i've also almost completely
dropped out of the xian music scene.
It seems like most everybody I know has.
that's pretty much the case with me as well. i know some of the
bands i listened to are still around and doing stuff, but most of
the people i've known that were into scene aren't into it much
anymore.
You should all become Southern Gospel fans like me.
*shudder* my musical tastes may be coming unfocused and less
intense, but i'm not sensing southern gospel as a musical style
i will persue. that's not to say the music doesn't have value,
it just doesn't have much value as a personal interest for me.
Post by David Bruce Murray
While the fads of Christian popular/rock/metal/alternative/
grunge/ska/rap music come and go like the tides, I have the
National Quartet Convention every year . . . good old traditional
four part, male quartet harmonies, with a dose of Country, Inspo,
and Bluegrass Gospel styles thrown in for variety. :o)
i'm okay with fads -- i just tend to have strong opinions about
them. i'm not interested only in music that has a very linear
and rigid history (compared to music in general), or only music
that has an extremely long past and traditions. that's cool
and all, but i have to like the music too.

and i like four part harmonies with no instruments...i grew up
in the churches of Christ after all. but that's church music to
me, not music i listen to for pleasure. some bluegrass is okay,
but i'm not a real big fan of it either.

in styles that would tend to be lumped in the same general bucket
with southern gospel (unless you're into any of them, in which
case they are very different)...we'll call the bucket country, or
perhaps americana...i like western swing, honky tonk, and old
traditional americana country. i'm more interested in the grit
of life than praise songs (in whatever flavor).
Post by David Bruce Murray
The one artist from the Christian pop scene that I've remained
devoted to hearing is Michael W. Smith. He's been all over the map
stylistically, which is probably why he's remained popular for so
long. I don't much care for his live worship recordings, but I like
just about everything else he's done. I liked the last Petra CD. Aside
from that, I've found little in the so called "CCM" scene over the
last year or two that makes me want to spend money on CDs or go to a
concert.
*shudder* ccm and i don't get along. i consider it to be mostly
bad pop music with a grotesque xian facelift. i hope i never find
myself listening to a ccm station for enjoyment...i think i might
have to end it all right there if i did...
Post by David Bruce Murray
We took our youth group to Atlanta Fest last year. That's probably the
last time I'll go, unless something seriously changes in the direction
of the industry. I can't point fingers at Tilley or anything like that
either. He brought in some of the most popular groups in Christian
music. It's just not that good right now.
i think one of my biggest issues that i felt like the alternative
xian music i listened to in the late 80's and early to mid 90's was
real. sure, there were the morons who were copping a style to try
to save the poor lost idiots who listened to that kind of crappy
music -- but a lot of the scene was people who were really a part
of the "real" scenes and were also xian. the alt xian scene itself
was a musical ghetto in some respects, but many of the people were
only in that ghetto with the music scene itself, not their whole
life. i feel like ccm, and most alt music styles that ccm has
expanded to embrace, has completely lost touch with the roots of
the music and has become just another caricature being paraded
around by church culture. yeah, there was a lot of goofiness in
the old alt xian scene...a lot of stuff that made me cringe...but
there was an honesty in there too, a realness, something rough
around the edges but meaningful.

so yeah, maybe i'm a self-important 30-something who thinks a lot
of the music of today sucks. but then i was a self-important
20-something who thought a lot of the music of then sucked too.
it just seems even more sucks in the xian scene now than it used
to... :)
--
scholar and fool /// posing as ***@failure.net
replace junkmail with slacker to e-mail me. no really.
David Bruce Murray
2004-02-04 18:02:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by scholar and fool
Post by David Bruce Murray
While the fads of Christian popular/rock/metal/alternative/
grunge/ska/rap music come and go like the tides, I have the
National Quartet Convention every year . . . good old traditional
four part, male quartet harmonies, with a dose of Country, Inspo,
and Bluegrass Gospel styles thrown in for variety. :o)
i'm okay with fads -- i just tend to have strong opinions about
them. i'm not interested only in music that has a very linear
and rigid history (compared to music in general), or only music
that has an extremely long past and traditions. that's cool
and all, but i have to like the music too.
Yeah, I was speaking tongue in cheek about that really. I do consider myself
fortunate in that I'm a SG fan and people keep making that style of music,
though. Not only that, they spend enough money on production quality and put
out enough releases that there's plenty to enjoy. The average SG group
releases one major studio release per year plus one or two "table products."
If you find a group you really like, there's no shortage of music.
Post by scholar and fool
and i like four part harmonies with no instruments...i grew up
in the churches of Christ after all. but that's church music to
me, not music i listen to for pleasure.
Speaking of no instruments, I miss the a cappella groups. Whatever happened
to groups like Take 6 and Glad?
Post by scholar and fool
some bluegrass is okay, but i'm not a real big fan of it either.
I'm the same way about bluegrass. I loved New Grass Revival because they
didn't sound like all other bluegrass groups. Unfortunately, most bluegrass
groups sound just alike.
Post by scholar and fool
in styles that would tend to be lumped in the same general bucket
with southern gospel (unless you're into any of them, in which
case they are very different)...we'll call the bucket country, or
perhaps americana...i like western swing, honky tonk, and old
traditional americana country. i'm more interested in the grit
of life than praise songs (in whatever flavor).
Lyrically speaking, I like songs to be "complete." To me, complete is
presenting a full thought specifically, not vaguely. I'm not into the "grit
of life," necessarily, though that's OK, but I really don't care for
vagueness . . . so I'm turned off by much of the praise music as well.

I also like music to have some level of entertainment value in mind.
Generally speaking, I'm not going to get into discovering the mind of a
music artist when that music artist produces material that has no particular
audience in mind. I love displays of virtuosity. You don't see much of that
any more in Christian music. Southern Gospel has low bass singers and high
tenor singers. SG also has a few piano players that really rip into a solo
from time to time.

One of the biggest problems I see in mainstream Christian music today is
that it generally sounds bland. I don't think that's a generational
statement, and I know there are exceptions (like Salvador). You can look at
the music of the 1980s and compare it to the music of today on that level.
Or even compare early 1990s to late 1990s. That's where it went into the
toilet, IMO. The big groups in the early 1990s were DC Talk and the
Newsboys, who both busted their butts to entertain you. The big groups in
the late 1990s were Jars of Clay and Caedmon's Call, who sat on stools and
wanted you to marvel at how deep their lyrics were.
Post by scholar and fool
i think one of my biggest issues that i felt like the alternative
xian music i listened to in the late 80's and early to mid 90's was
real. sure, there were the morons who were copping a style to try
to save the poor lost idiots who listened to that kind of crappy
music -- but a lot of the scene was people who were really a part
of the "real" scenes and were also xian.
That's so difficult to judge accurately, though. I'm shifting into "SGspeak"
here . . . I think that's just as difficult to judge as it is to judge
whether a singer has a "special anointing" from God. A lot of it has to do
with what level of emotional intensity an artist presents themselves on
stage. I prefer to take what a singer does on the surface and not try to
read too much into their personal intentions. The minute you praise a
particular alternative artist for being real, that's the minute you can
count on them to sell out to some pop endeavor--look at all the former rock
and roll lead singers who have gone to adult contemporary solo careers (Bob
Carlisle, anyone?)--of course, the minute you praise a SG artist for being
so "anointed" by God, that's the minute you learn they've been struggling
with a secret sin in their lives for the past 15 years.
Post by scholar and fool
so yeah, maybe i'm a self-important 30-something who thinks a lot
of the music of today sucks. but then i was a self-important
20-something who thought a lot of the music of then sucked too.
it just seems even more sucks in the xian scene now than it used
to... :)
I'd agree with that statement wholeheartedly. The mediocre to bad stuff will
always be with us. We can't escape that. It just seems that right now
there's so little "cream" rising to the top. In contrast, I can look at
other periods of music history where the cream really did rise to the top.
Even eras where I wasn't in my 20s. In SG, it would have to be the 1950s and
60s when the Blackwood Brothers, Statesmen, and Imperials were in their
heyday. Another point came when the more emotional elements of SG came to
the fore . . . Happy Goodmans and Kingsmen . . . then there was a musical
quality emphasis on blend and powerful orchestrations in the 1980s with Gold
City, the Singing Americans, and the Nelons . . . now we have a progressive
movement blending elements of country with SG harmony and lyrics along with
pop production quality: Gaither Vocal Band, Crabb Family, the Martins.

In Christian pop music, I'd say the high points have been seriously lacking
in the last 5 or 6 years. The last Christian pop recordings that really
grabbed my attention were _Jesus Freak_ and Steven Curtis Chapman's _Signs
Of Life_. Around the same time, the Christian record labels were force
feeding us a diet of MxPx, Paul Q Pek, and Grover Levy. These were
considered the "next big thing." MxPx made it, I suppose, but where are the
other two?

--
David Bruce Murray / ***@NOSPAMmailblocks.com
---Making hay while the sun shines---
Classical Music at: http://virtualvirtuoso.iuma.com
For all my reviews and more, visit: www.musicscribe.com
---"I know a pagan piano riff when I hear it." (Dr. Bobby Clark, 5/7/03)---
scholar and fool
2004-02-04 23:59:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Bruce Murray
[...] i'm not interested only in music that has a very linear
and rigid history (compared to music in general), or only music
that has an extremely long past and traditions. that's cool
and all, but i have to like the music too.
Yeah, I was speaking tongue in cheek about that really. I do consider
myself fortunate in that I'm a SG fan and people keep making that
style of music, though. Not only that, they spend enough money on
production quality and put out enough releases that there's plenty to
enjoy. The average SG group releases one major studio release per year
plus one or two "table products." If you find a group you really like,
there's no shortage of music.
unlike a lot of honky tonk and traditional country artists (the
real ones, not the pablum that gets passed off as country on the
country stations since around the mid-80's), i guess the southern
gospel guys tend to hang around on the earth a bit longer. :)
Post by David Bruce Murray
and i like four part harmonies with no instruments...i grew up
in the churches of Christ after all. but that's church music to
me, not music i listen to for pleasure.
Speaking of no instruments, I miss the a cappella groups. Whatever
happened to groups like Take 6 and Glad?
they were all church of Christ folk...when the churches of Christ
went into decline, the shoe-in audiences probably did too. :)
Post by David Bruce Murray
some bluegrass is okay, but i'm not a real big fan of it either.
[...] Unfortunately, most bluegrass groups sound just alike.
if i were a bluegrass fan i'd probably disagree, but since i'm
not i agree wholeheartedly.
Post by David Bruce Murray
in styles [...] we'll call the bucket country, or
perhaps americana...i like western swing, honky tonk, and old
traditional americana country. i'm more interested in the grit
of life than praise songs (in whatever flavor).
Lyrically speaking, I like songs to be "complete." To me, complete is
presenting a full thought specifically, not vaguely. I'm not into the
"grit of life," necessarily, though that's OK, but I really don't care
for vagueness . . . so I'm turned off by much of the praise music as
well.
i'm okay with vagueness. i think i have too much exposure to the
fallout from postmodernism to dislike vagueness flat out...i like
some of the stuff. but not praise music. *shudder* it just sounds
too chipper and happy and "gosh-darn-it ain't life grand let's just
praise the L-rd! hosannah! praise His name in the highest!" bleh.
i like the old hymns that have some of that grit. the stuff that
is reverent and solemn. hey, i said i grew up in the churches of
Christ...
Post by David Bruce Murray
I also like music to have some level of entertainment value in mind.
Generally speaking, I'm not going to get into discovering the mind of
a music artist when that music artist produces material that has no
particular audience in mind. I love displays of virtuosity. You don't
see much of that any more in Christian music. Southern Gospel has low
bass singers and high tenor singers. SG also has a few piano players
that really rip into a solo from time to time.
entertainment can be cool. but i'm almost more about atmosphere a
song creates...the emotions it can draw out. that can be humor, or
sadness, or anger, or whatever. it's personal preference obviously,
but there are just certain things that get to me. a lot of the
virtuosity stuff doesn't do much for me...i'm just not into music
for almost any level of being impressed by the artist's technical
talent or developed skills. maybe that's why i'm more willing to
accept the comings and goings of fads. that's probably also part
of the reason i really don't like opera or dream theatre.
Post by David Bruce Murray
One of the biggest problems I see in mainstream Christian music today
is that it generally sounds bland. I don't think that's a generational
statement, and I know there are exceptions (like Salvador). You can
look at the music of the 1980s and compare it to the music of today on
that level. Or even compare early 1990s to late 1990s. That's where it
went into the toilet, IMO. The big groups in the early 1990s were DC
Talk and the Newsboys, who both busted their butts to entertain you.
The big groups in the late 1990s were Jars of Clay and Caedmon's Call,
who sat on stools and wanted you to marvel at how deep their lyrics
were.
i'd agree with your general timeline, but it's not the entertainment
level for me. i loathed dc talk and the newsboys. i was neutral on
jars of clay and caedmon's call. stilling on stools is cool, deep
lyrics are cool...but they definitely don't make a band good. i do
think a lot of the energy and freshness of various styles of music
get quickly muted and homogenized and become bland when packaged for
the average cbs or basically for the christian market. the same
thing tends to happen in the regular market as well. there is an
edginess and uniqueness to underground scenes that rarely ever can
make the transition to mainstream.
Post by David Bruce Murray
i think one of my biggest issues that i felt like the alternative
xian music i listened to in the late 80's and early to mid 90's was
real. sure, there were the morons who were copping a style to try
to save the poor lost idiots who listened to that kind of crappy
music -- but a lot of the scene was people who were really a part
of the "real" scenes and were also xian.
That's so difficult to judge accurately, though. I'm shifting into
"SGspeak" here . . . I think that's just as difficult to judge as it
is to judge whether a singer has a "special anointing" from God.
gah. i hated all that annointing blather. i'm glad i don't
run in circles where i have to hear that used much anymore.

i don't think in subgenre alternative scenes it quite as hard
to determine is someone is connected to the real scene or not.
sometimes it's rather obvious, sometimes they do a pretty good
job of hiding it. so, yeah, you can't always tell. but once
the "xian music ghetto" was creating bands that were raised on
nothing but the once-removed xian versions of bands, you can
see that something is being lost for anyone that cares about
and respects the origins. i'm not saying something good or
even better couldn't come out of such a situation, but in this
case i don't think it did.
Post by David Bruce Murray
A lot of it has to do with what level of emotional intensity
an artist presents themselves on stage.
i totally agree with that. not only that, but many times xians
would also be perfectly willing to agree with an artist if they
said they felt they were led to do something, which they obviously
should not be doing. xians also tend to get very offended when
someone makes negative comments about one of these "annointed"
folk.
Post by David Bruce Murray
I prefer to take what a singer does on
the surface and not try to read too much into their personal
intentions. The minute you praise a particular alternative artist for
being real, that's the minute you can count on them to sell out to
some pop endeavor--look at all the former rock and roll lead singers
who have gone to adult contemporary solo careers (Bob Carlisle,
anyone?)--of course, the minute you praise a SG artist for being so
"anointed" by God, that's the minute you learn they've been struggling
with a secret sin in their lives for the past 15 years.
yeah, humans pretty much all suck and will let you down at some
point. at least some of the artists try to keep expectations
down and remind everyone that they are human and messed up too.
it seems kind of hard for people to accept though...i'm not sure
why being able to play an instrument or sing makes people think
such individuals live on a higher moral plain or have an easier
time dealing with the crap and trappings of the world around us.
i guess maybe it's because most of the time the only interaction
they have with such folk is when they are being spirtual or
trying to express complex truths or emotions.
Post by David Bruce Murray
it just seems even more sucks in the xian scene now than it used
to... :)
I'd agree with that statement wholeheartedly. The mediocre to bad
stuff will always be with us. We can't escape that. It just seems that
right now there's so little "cream" rising to the top. In contrast, I
can look at other periods of music history where the cream really did
rise to the top. [...]
yeah, i agree with that, and think with hindsight it is possible to
look back at the music trends in different genres and subgenres over
time and see when low and high periods were. i feel like we're in
a low period. i like to think it's not just me getting old.
Post by David Bruce Murray
In Christian pop music, I'd say the high points have been seriously
lacking in the last 5 or 6 years. The last Christian pop recordings
that really grabbed my attention were _Jesus Freak_ and Steven Curtis
Chapman's _Signs Of Life_. Around the same time, the Christian record
labels were force feeding us a diet of MxPx, Paul Q Pek, and Grover
Levy. These were considered the "next big thing." MxPx made it, I
suppose, but where are the other two?
i liked mxpx okay...but they seemed to overall actually be from and
appreciate the scene they were playing in. paul q-pek came from
one bad pig, which maybe originally sort of understood the scene
they were playing in, but quickly turned into sanitized youth group
stuff that had very little if any connection to the real scene. i
think paul tried to reinvent himself in a solo career as a sort of
xian peter gabriel...i guess it didn't work out. i don't remember
much of anything about grover levy, except i think the album cover
had him in a turtleneck that covered the bottom half of his face.

there have been bands that were "real" or worked in the last few
years, some in genres that i'm not really a fan of: zao, stretch
armstrong, etc. but i think the number of flat acts (as compared
to truly interesting and attention-holding acts) has increased
dramatically over the last 5 or 6 years.
--
scholar and fool /// posing as ***@failure.net
replace junkmail with phliktid to e-mail me
Michael A. Vickers
2004-02-04 05:06:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by scholar and fool
Post by Jerry B. Ray, Jr.
Post by scholar and fool
heh. yeah. unfortunately, i've also almost completely dropped
out of the xian music scene.
It seems like most everybody I know has.
that's pretty much the case with me as well.
Ditto, and I'm finding I've headed off into that time of life where I'm more
interested in AM radio than FM radio.

We've had this discussion (or ones like it) a few times before. Given we are
all around the same age I often wonder if it's us that has changed or if the
quality of music has really gone in the crapper. Or both.

I'm acutely aware of my father having the same sort of distaste for my music
tastes when I was growing up. In any event, I buy (and listen to) a whole lot
less music than I used to.


Michael

--
No ifs, ands, or buts, this old world has dekcik ym ssa. - 77s
Breeze
2004-02-04 14:56:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael A. Vickers
Ditto, and I'm finding I've headed off into that time of life where I'm more
interested in AM radio than FM radio.
Me too, and what you say below about age probably has a lot to do with that.
Music is still a key element in my life, but quite not as much as it once
was. I do get a kick out of 80's block weekends, and I love the 80's and
Hair Metal stations on Radio Netscape and elsewhere on the internet.
Post by Michael A. Vickers
We've had this discussion (or ones like it) a few times before. Given we are
all around the same age I often wonder if it's us that has changed or if the
quality of music has really gone in the crapper. Or both.
Probably both, but I would say it's our ages more than anything (I'm 34).
Being a dj at a Christian music station, we hear from people who absolutely
love the songs we play. Often they are songs that don't interest me one
bit. And it's almost always younger people who call or write with those
positive comments. Give them 10 or 15 years and they'll be in the same boat
as us. :) But the reason I like doing what I'm doing is because there are
a lot of people who love listening to the stuff coming out today.

Most of the time when I hear someone say that the Christian music of today
is crap, it's coming from a self-important 30-something, who hasn't yet come
to terms with the fact that it's he or she who has changed - not the quality
of music, as you say.

-Breeze
scholar and fool
2004-02-04 16:19:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Breeze
Post by Michael A. Vickers
We've had this discussion (or ones like it) a few times before.
Given we are all around the same age I often wonder if it's us
that has changed or if the quality of music has really gone in
the crapper. Or both.
Probably both, but I would say it's our ages more than anything (I'm 34).
i'm 34 as well, and i would agree our ages definitely play a part
in the whole thing. i do think the quality of music comes and
goes, just as styles and scenes come and go...and i know even in
my past there were phases where not much was out and around that
was interesting to me. that usually led to me trying out some
new things, and eventually finding some new stuff to like. i'm
just concerned that at some point the "trying out new things"
phase will end and i'll be stuck listening to only listening to
music that is old and comfortable for me.
Post by Breeze
Being a dj at a Christian music station, we hear from people
who absolutely love the songs we play. Often they are songs
that don't interest me one bit. And it's almost always
younger people who call or write with those positive comments.
Give them 10 or 15 years and they'll be in the same boat as
us. :)
that doesn't phase me too much though, because even when i was
younger and really into the alt xian scene, i pretty much never
heard anything i liked on xian music stations, but i know there
were people who absolutely loved the songs, including young
people. G-d bless 'em, but me and them don't see near eye to
eye on some things.
Post by Breeze
Most of the time when I hear someone say that the Christian music
of today is crap, it's coming from a self-important 30-something,
who hasn't yet come to terms with the fact that it's he or she
who has changed - not the quality of music, as you say.
christian music of today is crap. christian music of yesterday
was crap. Unfortunately, certain styles of yesterday that would
sometimes have gems in them seem to have been overrun by crap
these days as well.

i've changed, the music's changed, but the crap's still crap --
and now i've not got the energy and devotion to put up with the
crap to enjoy the good stuff that might be in there somewhere.

does that make me a self-important 30-something, or just a
cynical old jerk? or perhaps a crossbreed? :)
--
scholar and fool /// posing as ***@failure.net
replace junkmail with slacker to e-mail me
Breeze
2004-02-04 18:12:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by scholar and fool
i'm
just concerned that at some point the "trying out new things"
phase will end and i'll be stuck listening to only listening to
music that is old and comfortable for me.
I'd say that's where I'm at right now. I don't generally try new things
anymore, musically speaking. As with Michael, I'm stuck on AM talk shows
most of the time, and the only time I listen to music on the radio is when
they're playing 80's pop, and also "classic rock," which lately has been
including the early 80's. Like I said, I *do* keep up with new Christian
music which is on the radio, but that's because it's my job, and I generally
like what I hear but I don't think I'd be listening as much if I weren't
working there.
Post by scholar and fool
Post by Breeze
Being a dj at a Christian music station, we hear from people
who absolutely love the songs we play. Often they are songs
that don't interest me one bit. And it's almost always
younger people who call or write with those positive comments.
Give them 10 or 15 years and they'll be in the same boat as
us. :)
that doesn't phase me too much though, because even when i was
younger and really into the alt xian scene, i pretty much never
heard anything i liked on xian music stations, but i know there
were people who absolutely loved the songs, including young
people. G-d bless 'em, but me and them don't see near eye to
eye on some things.
Right, and I don't blame certain people with certain tastes for not
listening to Christian radio stations. But we do get letters from people
with life changing experiences because of the music, and from others just
saying it rawks, so I think it's a wonderful thing. It's like that "Carman"
thing here in rmc. Not a lot of respect from a lot of rmc'ers, and I don't
care for him or his music, but one man's junk is another man's treasure.
The same things that might turn you or I on, are utter crap to someone else.
Post by scholar and fool
Post by Breeze
Most of the time when I hear someone say that the Christian music
of today is crap, it's coming from a self-important 30-something,
who hasn't yet come to terms with the fact that it's he or she
who has changed - not the quality of music, as you say.
christian music of today is crap. christian music of yesterday
was crap. Unfortunately, certain styles of yesterday that would
sometimes have gems in them seem to have been overrun by crap
these days as well.
i've changed, the music's changed, but the crap's still crap --
and now i've not got the energy and devotion to put up with the
crap to enjoy the good stuff that might be in there somewhere.
does that make me a self-important 30-something, or just a
cynical old jerk? or perhaps a crossbreed? :)
Just speaking your opinion. The "self-important" thing was actually
something I added at the last moment - a reference to someone else in this
thread who at one time called me that, and promptly killfiled me, as if it
wasn't *obvious* that it should've been the other way around, except I don't
killfile people. :)

-Breeze
scholar and fool
2004-02-05 00:09:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Breeze
Post by scholar and fool
that doesn't phase me too much though, because even when i was
younger and really into the alt xian scene, i pretty much never
heard anything i liked on xian music stations, but i know there
were people who absolutely loved the songs, including young
people. G-d bless 'em, but me and them don't see near eye to
eye on some things.
Right, and I don't blame certain people with certain tastes for not
listening to Christian radio stations. But we do get letters from
people with life changing experiences because of the music, and from
others just saying it rawks, so I think it's a wonderful thing. It's
like that "Carman" thing here in rmc. Not a lot of respect from a lot
of rmc'ers, and I don't care for him or his music, but one man's junk
is another man's treasure. The same things that might turn you or I
on, are utter crap to someone else.
oh, i've known people who thought ccm rock bands were totally
awesome. i have friends who've argued emphatically with me for
extended periods of time about c-rm-n and other ccm bands. i'm
not going to say something good can't come out of what those
people are doing, and maybe that's what some people need, but i
do think there is some level of objective standard that can be
held up to judge things by. not completely...there's a lot of
subjective going on, but i think there is some objective there.
everyone has to draw some standards somewhere about where they
are going to judge things. and we tend to pick the things we
believe in as standards, so...as long as we can explain what
our standards are we should be able to determine to some degree
whether it's that people value/devalue different things or if
it is really just completely different standards. just as
others will act on their beliefs and standards, so i on mine. :)
Post by Breeze
Post by scholar and fool
does that make me a self-important 30-something, or just a
cynical old jerk? or perhaps a crossbreed? :)
Just speaking your opinion. The "self-important" thing was
actually something I added at the last moment - a reference
to someone else [...]
ah, the bubbling up personality clashes in r.m.c? say it
isn't so!? aren't we all on the same team, brother? ;)
--
scholar and fool /// posing as ***@failure.net
replace junkmail with phliktid to e-mail me
David Bruce Murray
2004-02-04 15:44:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael A. Vickers
We've had this discussion (or ones like it) a few times before. Given we are
all around the same age I often wonder if it's us that has changed or if the
quality of music has really gone in the crapper. Or both.
I think most people tend to reserve a special place in their heart for
whatever music they enjoyed the most during their late teens and/or early
20s. I don't know why that tends to be true.

At the same time, I think anyone who has made music an important part of
their life should be able to look at a style of music they don't
particularly like and still rate the quality of it.
Post by Michael A. Vickers
I'm acutely aware of my father having the same sort of distaste for my music
tastes when I was growing up.
My parents don't have the same level of interest in music that I have. They
never did. I don't know that they've ever hated the music I like to hear,
though I'm sure they didn't care for some of it. Now, we like some of the
same music . . . (we'll all three watch a Gaither video, for example) . . .
but my mother generally dislikes my father's favorite music (bluegrass).
I've never thought of it as being a generational thing. It's just a
difference in musical taste and their level of overall interest in music.
Maybe I was just fortunate, but I never remember them standing over me
telling me the music I bought was crap.

--
David Bruce Murray / ***@NOSPAMmailblocks.com
---Making hay while the sun shines---
Classical Music at: http://virtualvirtuoso.iuma.com
For all my reviews and more, visit: www.musicscribe.com
---"I know a pagan piano riff when I hear it." (Dr. Bobby Clark, 5/7/03)---
Jerry B. Ray, Jr.
2004-02-04 15:56:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Bruce Murray
I think most people tend to reserve a special place in their heart for
whatever music they enjoyed the most during their late teens and/or early
20s. I don't know why that tends to be true.
I guess that's true, but at the same time, I've lately discovered a lot of
music that came out before that period in my life that I never listened to
back in the day. There's also some new music that I like, but it just tends
not to be the most mainstream stuff.

While I have a fond place in my heart for a lot of the music I listened to
as a teen, I don't find myself actually listening to it all that much anymore.

JRjr
--
%%%%% Jerry B. Ray, Jr. %%%%%%%% www.prism.gatech.edu/~jr70 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%
"Some will shake off the sloth of faithlessness
While others simply languish in their sleep
Me, I just fight to stay awake..." -- VOL, "Black Cloud O'er Me"
David Bruce Murray
2004-02-04 17:03:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry B. Ray, Jr.
While I have a fond place in my heart for a lot of the music I listened to
as a teen, I don't find myself actually listening to it all that much anymore.
Same here . . . I loved Petra's _Beat The System_ and Allies _Man With A
Mission_ and Amy Grant's _Unguarded_ and Michael W. Smith's _The Big
Picture_, but if I listen to them more than once every year or two, it's a
rare event. I tend to go thru spells where I'll pull out old music and
listen to it. Four or five years later, I might do the same thing again.

--
David Bruce Murray / ***@NOSPAMmailblocks.com
---Making hay while the sun shines---
Classical Music at: http://virtualvirtuoso.iuma.com
For all my reviews and more, visit: www.musicscribe.com
---"I know a pagan piano riff when I hear it." (Dr. Bobby Clark, 5/7/03)---
scholar and fool
2004-02-05 00:22:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Bruce Murray
I think most people tend to reserve a special place in their
heart for whatever music they enjoyed the most during their
late teens and/or early 20s. I don't know why that tends to
be true.
don't forget about those that go back to the music of their
early youth, the stuff they grew up listening to because that
is what their parents or older siblings listened to. hey, it
happens.
Post by David Bruce Murray
At the same time, I think anyone who has made music an
important part of their life should be able to look at a
style of music they don't particularly like and still rate
the quality of it.
i think that's pretty much true, although there are certain
types of music where the standards by which you judge the
music changes greatly from what the person's usual standards
might be (and thus they might judge it all as being bad).
but overall, yeah, i agree.
Post by David Bruce Murray
Post by Michael A. Vickers
I'm acutely aware of my father having the same sort of
distaste for my music tastes when I was growing up.
My parents don't have the same level of interest in music that
I have. They never did. I don't know that they've ever hated
the music I like to hear, though I'm sure they didn't care for
some of it. Now, we like some of the same music . . . (we'll
all three watch a Gaither video, for example) . . . but my
mother generally dislikes my father's favorite music
(bluegrass). I've never thought of it as being a generational
thing. It's just a difference in musical taste and their level
of overall interest in music. Maybe I was just fortunate, but
I never remember them standing over me telling me the music I
bought was crap.
hhmmm...i'd say i'm somewhere between the two. my parents were
fairly young when they had me, so my mom was in her early 20's
when i was young, my dad in his mid to late 20's. i liked some
of the stuff they liked. i know as i got older and my tastes
diverged from theirs, they started to not understand or like
the music i was listening to (my mom thought the music made me
depressed, my dad just thought i was odd and didn't understand
why i'd want to be like i was). i think some of the difference
was generational, some was taste. i think i had a deeper level
of interest in music than either of my parents. i think that's
all still pretty much the case.

but i don't want to be a parent that just thinks any music those
kids these days are listening to is a bunch of noise or crap. i
guess i also don't want to be the frightening old man that acts
and dresses like he thinks he's a teenager either. when my
parents were my age, i was already a teenager. yeesh, that's
frightening...i think i need to stop typing...
--
scholar and fool /// posing as ***@failure.net
replace junkmail with phliktid to e-mail me
rose
2004-01-24 14:35:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by scholar and fool
Post by rose
It's strange (and sometimes, a little sad) how some
people just disappear from here.
tell me about it. *rolls eyes*
And reappear...disappear and reappear!! =)

Peace,

Rose
Ethan Rogati
2004-01-24 15:35:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by scholar and fool
Post by rose
It's strange (and sometimes, a little sad) how some
people just disappear from here.
tell me about it. *rolls eyes*
Yay! He's back!
David Bruce Murray
2004-01-20 22:20:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by ALuddy
Does anyone else consider this to be an oxymoron?
Why do I get the mental picture of a really stupid bull bawling because his
horns are caught in a thicket every time I hear that word? :o)

--
David Bruce Murray / ***@NOSPAMmailblocks.com
---Making hay while the sun shines---
Classical Music at: http://virtualvirtuoso.iuma.com
For all my reviews and more, visit: www.musicscribe.com
---"I know a pagan piano riff when I hear it." (Dr. Bobby Clark, 5/7/03)---
JB
2004-01-23 21:37:50 UTC
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Post by Sam Shem
anyone know of a website which offers lots and lots and lots of christian
music downloads, (legal) downloads for all you x kazers. Or even an only
christian music download service.
SamShem
For mine eyes have seen they salvation.
I use Rhapsody everyday -- it has many Tooth and Nail, Word, and
ForeFront artists -- not many indies though.

- JB
Christrock.com
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